Batman #53 Preview

[FBarnhill]

I still think that Bruce isn't saying he's an atheist (there is no God), but that he's agnostic (he doesn't believe in God).

*Sigh*

Atheist: Doesn't believe in God.

Agnostic: Doesn’t know if one exists or not.

[Caivu]

We all knew, or at least assumed, Batman’s an atheist. I just don’t like how they’re not exploring his Jewish ancestry. He’s Kate Kane’s first cousin, and since she's Jewish, that would mean Bruce's mother Martha Kane was Jewish, and since Jewish ethnicity is matrilineal, that would make Bruce Jewish.

This. I noticed immediately when Martha's beliefs weren't even hinted at despite Thomas's being discussed.

[Talon1load]

This arc was so much bullshit. I don’t understand how anyone can say this was a well written story. Bruce BRIBES his way into a jury to convince the jury that Batman was wrong about Freeze instead of finding the real killer and clearing his name at the same time. How does this sound anything like Batman? He ripped a damn toilet off the wall, but wasn’t removed? Stop with this bullshit. King has no idea who Batman is. None. This is ridiculous. Just issues ago 2 entire wedding parties were murdered by the Joker but all he can think about is how Selina left him? He’s going on about his dead parents AGAIN? Holy crap, move on. Kings Batman is a broken record whdoesnt give a **** about anyone but himself. He’s a selfish, self centered prick who whines and cries instead of doing anything to make Gotham a better place.

[Ten_to_Three]

We all knew, or at least assumed, Batman’s an atheist. I just don’t like how they’re not exploring his Jewish ancestry. He’s Kate Kane’s first cousin, and since she's Jewish, that would mean Bruce's mother Martha Kane was Jewish, and since Jewish ethnicity is matrilineal, that would make Bruce Jewish.

I'm not saying Bruce can't have Jewish ancestry. However, I do wonder how you reached the conclusion that Bruce is Jewish with your argument. You mentioned yourself Jewish ethnicity is matrilineal, and thus Kate being Jewish indicates her mother is Jewish. Kate's father's ethnicity has little bearing on Kate's Jewishness, which means he's not necessarily Jewish even if Kate is. And since Martha is Kate's paternal aunt, there's no knowing for sure she's Jewish either.

[millernumber1]

*Sigh*

Atheist: Doesn't believe in God.

Agnostic: Doesn’t know if one exists or not.

I believe that an atheist believes there is no God, not that they don't believe in God. They believe that the existence of God is impossible. That's not what I'm getting from Bruce. Honestly, to me it felt like he believes in something very similar to God, but he can't understand how the world makes sense with that God-like thing, and he definitely doesn't think he should worship or have faith in that being.

[FBarnhill]

I believe that an atheist believes there is no God, not that they don't believe in God. They believe that the existence of God is impossible. That's not what I'm getting from Bruce. Honestly, to me it felt like he believes in something very similar to God, but he can't understand how the world makes sense with that God-like thing, and he definitely doesn't think he should worship or have faith in that being.

I’m not sure the correct term for someone who knows there are no Gods but atheism is about the belief that God doesn’t exist. There’s a difference between belief and knowledge. Agnosticism has to do with knowledge and they stay neutral on the topic. There are agnostics that either do believe there is a God or not but they still say they don’t know.

I'm not saying Bruce can't have Jewish ancestry. However, I do wonder how you reached the conclusion that Bruce is Jewish with your argument. You mentioned yourself Jewish ethnicity is matrilineal, and thus Kate being Jewish indicates her mother is Jewish. Kate's father's ethnicity has little bearing on Kate's Jewishness, which means he's not necessarily Jewish even if Kate is. And since Martha is Kate's paternal aunt, there's no knowing for sure she's Jewish either.

Perhaps this will help:

http://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/...t-i-am-jewish/

[Ten_to_Three]

Perhaps this will help:

http://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/...t-i-am-jewish/

All this article says is "if Kane’s father is Jewish, so was Martha," which is of course true. However, it doesn't provide any evidence pointing toward Kate's father really being Jewish.

[FBarnhill]

I guess I want it to be true. Jewish people are an oppressed minority. Think about how awesome it’d be if Batman was their Black Panther? There have been Jewish superheroes before and after, but none with the Bat’s status.

[Ten_to_Three]

I guess I want it to be true. Jewish people are an oppressed minority. Think about how awesome it’d be if Batman was their Black Panther? There have been Jewish superheroes before and after, but none with the Bat’s status.

I totally support you to interpret Bruce's ethnicity the way you like, for it is indeed possible for Martha to be Jewish. Still, I can't help but feel saying Bruce is Jewish without mentioning it's one valid conjecture among many is a little misleading.

[FBarnhill]

I totally support you to interpret Bruce's ethnicity the way you like, for it is indeed possible for Martha to be Jewish. Still, I can't help but feel saying Bruce is Jewish without mentioning it's one valid conjecture among many is a little misleading.

At the end of the day, I guess him being Jewish won’t really change his character, much like if they decide to give him Native American or African ancestry. He just admitted he’s an atheist. Whatever traditions he may have had, whatever religion he really is, are long gone.

FWIW, Bill Finger, himself Jewish, always stated that Bruce is a WASP, but he’s had plenty of writers since then to add more and more details about him. I don’t ever think Finger would’ve made the decision to make Bruce thinking about suicide as a child.

[Armor of God]

I'm not saying Bruce can't have Jewish ancestry. However, I do wonder how you reached the conclusion that Bruce is Jewish with your argument. You mentioned yourself Jewish ethnicity is matrilineal, and thus Kate being Jewish indicates her mother is Jewish. Kate's father's ethnicity has little bearing on Kate's Jewishness, which means he's not necessarily Jewish even if Kate is. And since Martha is Kate's paternal aunt, there's no knowing for sure she's Jewish either.

Agreed and furthermore just why exactly are we lumping Bruce's development with that of Kate Kane's? this argument is entirely based on what Kate's family is or is not. Batman writers are not going to follow Batwoman writers. I dont think anyone in the future will acknowledge the cousin angle Tynion pushed other than Batwoman writers maybe. Batman has his own history and lore, his own mythology and celebrated writers. They're not going to look at Tynion and make his Batwoman centered interpretation their Bible, no pun intended.

[Caivu]

I believe that an atheist believes there is no God, not that they don't believe in God.

Screenshot_20180818-164103.jpg

Soft atheism = lacking belief in dieties
Hard atheism = believing no dieties exist

And since Martha is Kate's paternal aunt, there's no knowing for sure she's Jewish either.

Well, we know this menorah at the Waynes' funeral isn't for Thomas, so...

Screenshot_20180817-201805.jpg

All this article says is "if Kane’s father is Jewish, so was Martha," which is of course true. However, it doesn't provide any evidence pointing toward Kate's father really being Jewish.

Then let me:

Screenshot_20180818-090226.jpg

[Ten_to_Three]

Well, we know this menorah at the Waynes' funeral isn't for Thomas, so...

Screenshot_20180817-201805.jpg


Then let me:

Screenshot_20180818-090226.jpg

if we're going for religious symbols:

page_15.jpg
(the scan is from N52, which means it's currently in continuity)

As for your second scan. I take back my earlier argument. I didn't consider the possibility that Jacob could've converted to Judaism later in life. Many people do convert to their spouse's religion. If this is the case, him seeing a Rabbi has nothing to do with either Martha's ethnicity or religion.

Let me be clear--I'm not saying Martha can't be Jewish. Her being Jewish is one reasonable character interpretation. Nevertheless, there exist other interpretations that are also valid.

[Caivu]

if we're going for religious symbols:

page_15.jpg
(the scan is from N52, which means it's currently in continuity)

That does not in any way mean Martha wasn't Jewish.

As for your second scan. I take back my earlier argument. I didn't consider the possibility that Jacob could've converted to Judaism later in life.

But he didn't.

Here are confirmations from both Bennett and Tynion that, if nothing else, the current, modern conception of Martha (and Jacob, though he should never have been in question) is that they, and the rest of the Kanes, are a Jewish family (though mostly secular):

Screenshot_20180818-213239.jpg

Screenshot_20180818-213222.jpg

[Ten_to_Three]

That does not in any way mean Martha wasn't Jewish.

But he didn't.

Here are confirmations from both Bennett and Tynion that, if nothing else, the current, modern conception of Martha (and Jacob, though he should never have been in question) is that they, and the rest of the Kanes, are a Jewish family (though mostly secular):

Screenshot_20180818-213239.jpg

Screenshot_20180818-213222.jpg

Well, having a cross-shaped tombstone doesn't mean Martha is definitely Jewish, does it?

As for the social media posts, IMHO, only what appears in the comics and can be easily seen by all readers is canon.

And let me reiterate--I'm not against the idea of Martha and the Kanes in general being Jewish at all. It's just that the comics haven't provided enough evidence for me to regard them as undoubtedly Jewish. If someone someday makes it clear in the comics that Martha is Jewish, I'll gladly accept the characterization. For now, to me, it's "well you can say she's Jewish, but we don't know for sure."