Batman #53 Preview

[Caivu]

One is just a picture of a menorah with no text to really establish anything,

Use context. It's a menorah, a clearly Jewish symbol, present at the funeral of Thomas and Martha Wayne, and we already know that Thomas was not Jewish. So why else would it be there, for either in- or out-of-story reasons? What is the simplest, most reasonable explanation? It's that Martha was Jewish. I'm actually kinda astounded I have to explain this, honestly.

Why do you need Batman to specifically be Jewish?

Because that's where the current evidence leads. Martha was Jewish, therefore Bruce is. Simple as that. It takes literally nothing at all away from Bruce being raised as some variety of Protestant.

[Talon1load]

Well, feel free to believe what you want. You are putting way too much effort in trying to convince others.

[Caivu]

Well, feel free to believe what you want. You are putting way too much effort in trying to convince others.

I shouldn't have to convince anyone considering how obvious this is, but there we are.

[Ten_to_Three]

Seriously? Do you honestly believe that's the intent here? Occam's razor, friend. You're twisting yourself up in knots denying this just because there's a relative handful of exceptions to the obvious conclusion. Why are you doing that? Why?

No average person is going to identify a menorah as a Christian symbol, and you know it. This is getting ridiculous.

I don't. But I if someone does choose to interpret the whole thing this way I can't say they're definitely wrong because the explanation may be true (even if unlikely).

As for this part I said:

There's also a possibility that Martha isn't of a particular religion but is spiritual in a sense as well as open-minded and thus welcomes all kinds of religious symbols at her funeral.

I actually quite like the idea, and I'm considering to make it my headcanon.

[Caivu]

I don't. But I if someone does choose to interpret the whole thing this way I can't say they're definitely wrong because the explanation may be true (even if unlikely).

...

I actually quite like the idea, and I'm considering to make it my headcanon.

"All kinds of religious symbols at her funeral", huh? Too bad that's not the case.

I just don't understand why you're bending over backwards rather than just accept the most obvious solution to this.

[FBarnhill]

It’s my fault. I’m sorry for starting all this. If I knew there’d be a fight here, I would’ve never brought this up.

[Caivu]

It’s my fault. I’m sorry for starting all this. If I knew there’d be a fight here, I would’ve never brought this up.

Don't feel bad. I wouldn't consider this a fight, just a frustrating discussion.

[Ten_to_Three]

"All kinds of religious symbols at her funeral", huh? Too bad that's not the case.

I just don't understand why you're bending over backwards rather than just accept the most obvious solution to this.

Well, you don't know what every aspect of her funeral is like, do you? How can you say for sure there aren't other religious symbols outside the panels you see?

Your "the most obvious solution" is one possibility. The most likely one, yes, but it is still a possibility--otherwise you'd simply call it "the solution." The thing is, the most likely possibility doesn't negate the validity of other less likely possibilities. As long as DC doesn't clearly state Martha is Jewish, there's always room for reasonable alternate interpretations.

This is why when you asked me "WTF do you want?" I said I wanted direct acknowledgment on DC's part, because only direct acknowledgment can make all fans (among whom there bound to be some who dislike the idea due to anti-Semitic sentiments and thus prefer to interpret Martha as non-Jewish) accept the fact Martha and by extension Bruce have Jewish heritage.

Personally, I'm impartial to the ethnicity and religion of Martha. If you want to see a Jewish Martha, direct your frustration at DC and ask them to make Martha's ethnicity and religion clear-cut.

[Caivu]

Well, you don't know what every aspect of her funeral is like, do you? How can you say for sure there aren't other religious symbols outside the panels you see?

This is a ridiculous thing to say. Do you not understand that? Maybe a family of invisible, intangible gnomes lives in my kitchen, too.

If they wanted to express that Martha welcomed all those sorts of symbols, they would have shown that. They did not. They showed a Jewish symbol that, in this context, can only have applied to her.

I thought you were all about "clear statements"; why are you treating some sort of unseen maybe as a serious argument?

Your "the most obvious solution" is one possibility. The most likely one, yes, but it is still a possibility--otherwise you'd simply call it "the solution." The thing is, the most likely possibility doesn't negate the validity of other less likely possibilities. As long as DC doesn't clearly state Martha is Jewish, there's always room for reasonable alternate interpretations.

Except this is a clear statement, and none of the alternatives provided by you or others have been reasonable, and have instead been based on huge assumptions like "maybe there's stuff off-panel we can't see".

[Ten_to_Three]

This is a ridiculous thing to say. Do you not understand that? Maybe a family of invisible, intangible gnomes lives in my kitchen, too.

If they wanted to express that Martha weclcomed all those sorts of symbols. They would have shown that. They did not. They showed a Jewish symbol thst, in this context, can only have applied to her.



Except this is a clear statement, and none of the alternatives provided by you or others have been reasonable, and have instead been based on huge assumptions like "maybe there's stuff off-panel we can't see".

I've said all I wanted to say. If you believe Martha's religion/ethnicity is clear as it is, go ahead and keep wondering as well as getting frustrated about why you can't convince people that she's definitely Jewish.

[Caivu]

I've said all I wanted to say. If you believe Martha's religion/ethnicity is clear as it is, go ahead and keep wondering as well as getting frustrated about why you can't convince people that she's definitely Jewish.

I can take being frustrated. I'm not the one denying what's clearly printed on the page by hopscotching over all sorts of maybes and what-ifs and obscurities.

[Lazurus33]

I can take being frustrated. I'm not the one denying what's clearly printed on the page by hopscotching over all sorts of maybes and what-ifs and obscurities.

This may help
batwoman-jewish.jpgjewishbatwoman2.jpgbomb 10-06.jpg

Kate Kane is jewish, her father Jacob Kane is jewish, and his sister Martha Wayne was jewish etc.

[Restingvoice]

I'm neither Jewish nor invested in Batman at the moment, so I'm just gonna give a simple take.

There's a menorah in the funeral, therefore, someone who died there is Jewish. Especially after the author of said issue confirmed it. Done.

NOW.

People don't want to acknowledge it as canon yet because DC has yet to explicitly confirm it like they promote Batwoman as lesbian, or like Wonder Woman and Catwoman were publicly announced as bisexual, or provide a consistent depiction across the media. So the one panel is considered not long lasting enough.

DC does have a history of ignoring or replacing canon.

However, it IS canon NOW that Kate is Jewish and related to Bruce by Martha. So if Judaism works that way, then that panel is the consistent one. What they should do is to follow that example and keep it consistent across their portrayal, even if Bruce is an atheist as an adult at present by choice.

When DC ignore it, people forget it, and then the debate starts all over again.
I'm so tired of fan war caused by DC being vague with their continuity and therefore caused their readers to be selective too.

[Gurz]

Woohooo !!! Bruce is Godless. I love it.

[Mantis Dad]

Most all of the original heroes were brought to us (Marvel and DC), by writers of Jewish decent. So would not be surprised if all heroes were Jewish (think of all the Marvel Characters created by Stan). Back in the day though, they knew that some people disliked Jews, so wisely they left religion out of comics.

Personally, I believe Bruce is a closet Odinist. But that's just me.