Astonishing X-Men Annual 1 (2018)

[PsychoEFrost]

Were you sleeping during Fraction's run? Bendis's? Morrison's for god's sake? Generation X? The last two or three decades?

Were you? You're acting like Emma was always some psychopath.

[yogaflame]

Were you? You're acting like Emma was always some psychopath.

She was. She was just pretending to be otherwise, but she always reverts to form.

[Tycon]

Were you sleeping during Fraction's run? Bendis's? Morrison's for god's sake? Generation X? The last two or three decades?

Yeah.........and none of those have ever devolved into "but I'm secretly a good person uwu" arcs. To say that Emma joined thr X-Men out of the goodness and pureness of her heart is a fundamental misunderstanding of the character. She was never a crazy psychopath and when she joined the X-Men, she had the same characterization as when she dealt with the New Mutants + a little thing called character development. Plus I'm sure she's even called Charles out on putting on a deceptive image of a holier-than-thou saint while being a shady, manipulative pig. And when Xavier retorts the equivalent of "that's rich coming from you, Em", she snaps back, saying "I never put on the illusion that I was perfect and don't ever plan to."

[PsychoEFrost]

She was. She was just pretending to be otherwise, but she always reverts to form.

So your stance is to entirely ignore all X-Men content printed between October 1991 and April 2017? If you want to do that, go for it. Just understand that all facts, canon, and printed history completely 1000% disagree with you.

[yogaflame]

Emma dreamt about killing her sister in Generation X, woke up, and smiled about it. Her students didn't even say goodbye to her because they were scared of her. She stole her money and mindwiped a police officer investigating her before she fled the country. I've read the canon, almost all of it. I'm not ignoring anything, I'm looking at the entire picture.

She blew up an ice cream store with her goons in it in her first appearance. She tortured Storm and tried to tell her they should be friends. She stole her body and did goddess knows what with it. She burned a teenaged girls horse to death and told her she did it. She blew up dirigibles full of Inhumans. She willingly sided with Bastion and Ms Sinister to foricbly mutate people against their wills.

Y'all are the ones ignoring stories...

[Tycon]

Emma dreamt about killing her sister in Generation X, woke up, and smiled about it. Her students didn't even say goodbye to her because they were scared of her. She stole her money and mindwiped a police officer investigating her before she fled the country. I've read the canon, almost all of it. I'm not ignoring anything, I'm looking at the entire picture.

She blew up an ice cream store with her goons in it in her first appearance. She tortured Storm and tried to tell her they should be friends. She stole her body and did goddess knows what with it. She burned a teenaged girls horse to death and told her she did it. She blew up dirigibles full of Inhumans. She willingly sided with Bastion and Ms Sinister to foricbly mutate people against their wills.

Y'all are the ones ignoring stories...

Why do you keep bringing up these same points every time the convo turns into "grrrrr Emma's evil" or however we got here. You alwsys ignore the context of Emma killing her sister and why she did it. It always comes down to the situation of Adrienne setting BOMBS in a school full of CHILDREN, indirectly killing Synch, and threatening to kill the rest always being ignored with the simplest of points such as "Emma's psycho cause she uhhhhh *checks notes* killed her sister and smiled about it." That not only brought up past pain with the Hellions, but also shook her belief that she would always be able to keep these kids safe.

And yes, she psychologically tortured Firestar, and although she can't make up for that, she has certainly tried to make things better with Angelica. And counting that major OOC moment in IVX is a low-blow. And it's why that's been nearly pushed to the side and Emma's relations with the X-Men is no longer in the "we must hunt her Down" status.

That's why we see Emma near singlehandedly dissolve Havok's Cabal when she realizes the threat that Mothervine really poses to mutantkind. That's why the O5 are currently acting as her bodyguards so Magneto won't kill her........

[PsychoEFrost]

Emma dreamt about killing her sister in Generation X, woke up, and smiled about it. Her students didn't even say goodbye to her because they were scared of her. She stole her money and mindwiped a police officer investigating her before she fled the country. I've read the canon, almost all of it. I'm not ignoring anything, I'm looking at the entire picture.

She blew up an ice cream store with her goons in it in her first appearance. She tortured Storm and tried to tell her they should be friends. She stole her body and did goddess knows what with it. She burned a teenaged girls horse to death and told her she did it. She blew up dirigibles full of Inhumans. She willingly sided with Bastion and Ms Sinister to foricbly mutate people against their wills.

Y'all are the ones ignoring stories...

Yeah, she was awful as White Queen back in 1987. And she was stupidly evil in the worst written X-story of the last 15 years.

But you're also cherry picking extreme examples out of a history stretching from before I was born, and I was born in 1986. She also saved the Earth... seven times. Nearly giving her life for it twice. Was a beloved instructor in Generation X. Was a highly decorated instructor for her entire time as an X-Man. Saved the lives of her teammates and students on more than 50 occasions.

Face it, you're cherry picking to attack a character you hate. But you're wrong.

[yogaflame]

This was my exact point, which in your efforts to save your precious Emma, you fail to see. Xavier has personally saved the entire world several times. And he had to do some bad things along the way to do it. But in this thread everyone is jumping on him for being mean. I brought up the hypocrisy, compared to how fans like Emma and Erik, and then here we go again. On freaking cue.

[origami]

Calling it now... won't be long before Marvel creates a crossover event around the Return of the One True Prof X! Wheelchair and all.

I love seeing the original X-Men together: Jean, Bobby, Hank and Warren.
If only Marvel would give them a regular series; Cyke can join them when he returns (which he will, sooner or later).

[King_Thor13]

• It was shown in Soule's run that he did not have Fantomex's healing factor, so I think he does not have any of his powers. It was said that X was created with Fantomex body, it was not only a possession.
  
• Maybe X is super powerful, not only having Xavier's original powers but something more he took on the Astral Plane during all those years or during that fight he had alongside Psylocke, he might have taken a little bit of power from other psychics. Just a guess.
  
• I also thought the reunion was going to be a long talk and interaction between them. But it the end I liked it. I felt like they were home with each other.
  
• I have a theory that, since X erased Warren's mind, he did not know X gave him control over the Archangel persona. And soon as he transformed himself to kill Lucifer, he realized he was in control all along, and that's why he turned back to Angel without problems and even recognized it was his true intention to kill him.
  

1. Unusual. You'd think if Xavier had access to Fantomex's body, he'd keep the aspects that make him Astonishing. Having the power of misdirection and an external nervous system at his disposal would make him even more formidable.
2. Yeah, the years spent battling Farouk on the Astral Plane probably honed his skills. I like your suggestion that he may have tapped into the raw power of the Astral Plane and/or other psychics. Another possibility, which I just now concieved, is that Jean-Phillipe had three brains. If X does too, could that aid his telepathic prowess??
3. Honestly I wouldn't mind if we got an entire issue devoted to characters doing somewhat mundane things every now and again. Hell, the character interactions alone make for a great story.
4. Hmm. Also possible. So in making use of the Archangel, Warren became aware he was in control the entire time?

I love how mad people are at X for being a ruthless, powerful trickster, but when Emma or Erik does it, they are their favorite X-Men...

As someone who has read the original run, this is Xavier. He'd mindwipe whole towns recruiting the original X-Men, and covering their asses left and right when they were first getting started. He's always been ruthless. TAS's Xavier was a bit too sweet, as was Patrick Stewart's. Claremont understood this, though. He rode the edge well. This version is a bit more mean, and without restraint, but after battling Shadow King in the Astral for so long, who wouldn't become moreso?

I don't think Emma or Erik have ever hidden their intentions and put up a facade of honesty and morality like he has, claiming heroism and pure intent. And I'm not even touching on his weird obsession with Jean Grey. He's a hypocrite in that he always held his students to certain ideals too, while often breaking those same rules himself on numerous occassions. His secrets hurt the X-Men so many times. I don't think he should be so cold and ruthless, especially when he is supposed to be this mentor, and father-figure even. Honestly, the most likeable Xavier has been the films adaptation of the character (which can't really be said for any of the other X-Men).

Bobby's worst 'joke' ever?
Attachment 69394

Lol. Loved this. Never change Bobby.

Yeah.........and none of those have ever devolved into "but I'm secretly a good person uwu" arcs. To say that Emma joined the X-Men out of the goodness and pureness of her heart is a fundamental misunderstanding of the character. She was never a crazy psychopath and when she joined the X-Men, she had the same characterization as when she dealt with the New Mutants + a little thing called character development. Plus I'm sure she's even called Charles out on putting on a deceptive image of a holier-than-thou saint while being a shady, manipulative pig. And when Xavier retorts the equivalent of "that's rich coming from you, Em", she snaps back, saying "I never put on the illusion that I was perfect and don't ever plan to."

^^This. Emma has shown remorse/regret on numerous occassions, and we've seen her hurt. For a long time, Emma fought to prove her worth and loyalty, while members of the X-Men showed distrust. Even when she reverted to villainy, it wasn't a secret. Heck, there's an entire aspect of her character that centres on the metaphor of her being able to become diamond- she isn't flawless, nor does she claim to be. Besides, it's a weak argument to say that one character isn't so bad by comparing them to someone else. Xavier isn't a good man.

[PsychoEFrost]

This was my exact point, which in your efforts to save your precious Emma, you fail to see. Xavier has personally saved the entire world several times. And he had to do some bad things along the way to do it. But in this thread everyone is jumping on him for being mean. I brought up the hypocrisy, compared to how fans like Emma and Erik, and then here we go again. On freaking cue.

And... as people have explained to you multiple times, it's because Emma has never pretended to be a honest wholesome person like Charles has. It's the hypocrisy of Xavier that people have a severe issue with. Charles also has a body count that dwarfs anything Emma has put out.

[PsychoEFrost]

^^This. Emma has shown remorse/regret on numerous occassions, and we've seen her hurt. For a long time, Emma fought to prove her worth and loyalty, while members of the X-Men showed distrust. Even when she reverted to villainy, it wasn't a secret. Heck, there's an entire aspect of her character that centres on the metaphor of her being able to become diamond- she isn't flawless, nor does she claim to be. Besides, it's a weak argument to say that one character isn't so bad by comparing them to someone else. Xavier isn't a good man.

Thank you.

[ExodusCloak]

The whataboutism.argument does not change the fact that Xavier took the O5s autonomy away from them which is what is so awful in this issue. Their lives are due to him making that decision for them. He controlled them literally, and emotionally down to what they wear and think. They are his mind, body and soul.
Th.Xmen was founded on a grubby old man's perversion.

The whatsboutism argument is lazy one.

[Knives]

I love how mad people are at X for being a ruthless, powerful trickster, but when Emma or Erik does it, they are their favorite X-Men....

As someone who has read the original run, this is Xavier. He'd mindwipe whole towns recruiting the original X-Men, and covering their asses left and right when they were first getting started. He's always been ruthless. TAS's Xavier was a bit too sweet, as was Patrick Stewart's. Claremont understood this, though. He rode the edge well. This version is a bit more mean, and without restraint, but after battling Shadow King in the Astral for so long, who wouldn't become moreso?

That's because they are sincere to their nature from the beginning. Even when Emma or Erik have a change of attitude or morale from villain to anti heroes or heroes you still feel that they are fundamentally different from heroes or that if they betray you or cheat you it would be something natural for them because of their personality.

In the case of Xavier is more complicated he should be a pacifist and a type of Martin Luther King so not everyone is comfortable with his dark side.

Xavier should be a pillar that supports a dream or ideal but if the pillar shows cracks people will begin to doubt whether the pillar is strong enough or if it will collapse?

[yogaflame]

So when Emma goes from cackling villain trying to rule the world and make slaves of anyone who stands in her way, to "fighting to prove loyalty to the team", and then mind controls the team into being her slaves, and switches back to being a villain, it's not hypocritical. But when Xavier coerces the team into taking out a literal alien thought demon who would have taken over the whole world, and then mindwipes them into being happy instead of bitchy douches, he's evil incarnate? Ok, gotcha.