How many villains are the Avengers responsible for?

[Michael Watkins]

interpret the subject heading however you like. but are they responsible ((partially or wholly) for creating threats to the public/universe/etc? Ultron would, arguably, be one of the big ones.

my contribution: It's my belief that Eric O'Grady could have gone one of two directions. but his tenure as a secret avenger is what pushed him into the villain column. Valkyrie and Venom did their best to kill him; w/o a moment's hesitation. it's like none of his sacrifices beforehand even mattered. he was under the influence of the Descendants. it's no different a situation from when they face Inverted teammates or Wanda when she was nuts. and before anyone starts talking about him being a life model decoy, Father (the head of the descendants) placed Eric's mind and memories into an artificial form. that makes him no different than current Tony Stark and James Rhodes (or, if you prefer, Vision). The only one from his past who didn't throw him under the bus was Taskmaster (the villain that they allowed to train and mentor the Iniative recruits). and that gets us to the current state of affairs. the individual who risked dying in an atomic blast to save the other Secret Avengers, kept a destructive weapon out of Norman Osborn's hands, and provided essential information to the resistance during Secret Invasion is hanging out at Baggalia.


anyways, what are your entries?

[Mike_Murdock]

I feel Grim Reaper might be an example as well. Arguably, it's the Masters of Evil's fault and Eric Williams wasn't a saint beforehand, but it was the fact that the Avengers were to blame for Wonder Man's death that his path to supervillainy.

[Triniking1234]

Eric O'Grady died in the line of duty in Secret Avengers. Black Ant is just an LMD that worked for Father so I don't think it's fair to say they created him.

Grim Reaper is a better example since even though he was an a-hole he only went villain to get back at the Avengers causing Simon's death.

....and Mike Murdock beat me to it.

[davew128]

Well indirectly they are responsible for Kang, as their existence in his past is what motivates him to try to conquer the era. Ultron is obvious. Beyond that? Fabian Stankowicz?

[krazijoe]

Ultron....

[Michael Watkins]

I feel Grim Reaper might be an example as well. Arguably, it's the Masters of Evil's fault and Eric Williams wasn't a saint beforehand, but it was the fact that the Avengers were to blame for Wonder Man's death that his path to supervillainy.

how is his quest for revenge reasonable when Simon is pretty much immortal?

[Triniking1234]

Simon's immortality wasn't established by the time Eric became the Grim Reaper.

[Michael Watkins]

Eric O'Grady died in the line of duty in Secret Avengers. Black Ant is just an LMD that worked for Father so I don't think it's fair to say they created him.

pretty much all of the Avengers have died at some point. Black Ant isn't just some life model decoy. that should be apparent since he is no longer with the descendants or loyal to Father. if he were just a life model decoy, he wouldn't have been working with Mad Thinker to get his body back. he was clearly angry about what happened to him and regretted his decision to sacrifice himself. he's as alive as Jim Hammond, Vision, and Tony Stark are.

[Michael Watkins]

Simon's immortality wasn't established by the time Eric became the Grim Reaper.

but Eric's criminal bigot nature was established by that point. him going after the Avengers really didn't make much sense. he and Simon weren't close. and he has attempted to kill Simon in the past.