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  1. #31
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I brought up Dennis Hopeless's personal life because he's said that as a parent he wanted to put some of those experiences in his stories. And Jessica did not put her own pleasure above the well being of child. This simply wasn't the way the comic was written.
    For those of us that enjoyed the comics in question, some of the comments here seem completely off-mark. As if commenting on entirely different comics.

    Hopeless's Spider-Woman was a masterpiece from beginning to end. Wood's X-Men was the most interesting Jubilee has ever been in my opinion, never having liked her character until that run. The Coipel panel showing Jubilee and Shogo asleep remains one of my favourite modern panels:

    coipel.jpg

    Work like that speaks for itself.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 08-17-2018 at 05:27 AM.

  2. #32
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    Are we seriously arguing whether Jessica is irresponsible for having a child without a father in his life?

  3. #33
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Are we seriously arguing whether Jessica is irresponsible for having a child without a father in his life?
    Yep. My advice would be to ignore the troll in this case; that solves 99% of problems on the wed.

    In regards to the OP, I suspect that the most likely analogue characters to be written out are the ones perceived as replacements to the original and don't really have any other narrative function, if that makes any sense. For example, the teenage G1 X-Men and Old Man Logan seem to only fill this function. They don't seem to have much of a purpose with the real deal back. Conversely, X-23 (as Wolverine or not) is enough of her own character that she coexists without this problem. No clue about characters like Jimmy Hudson, though.

    (I suspect that Gabby Kinney will stick around; she's not really a Wolverine analogue so much as an X-23 supporting character, so doesn't take up space, so to speak.)
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  4. #34
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    Since Jubilee has been brought up as well, she’s also being irresponsible and selfish. Not as much as Spider-Woman (since she didn’t decide to bring him into the world), but she really ought to let the kid get adopted by a couple that will love him and can raise him responsibility. He’s not a mutant. He should have a normal life. He doesn’t need the X-Men. Plus, living in a mansion in the middle of Central Park with essentially a giant neon sign that reads “ATTACK US” is moronic. The X-Mansion already regularly got blown up and attacked by villains before it was in a public place. Again, the characters is putting themselves above the kids. This kind of stuff makes them unlikable and unadmirable.

    Jubilee and the kid should’ve been handled the way Eric and the kid were handled on Boy Meets World. Eric wanted to adopt the kid. The kid wanted to be adopted by Eric. But Eric came to understand that he would ultimately be doing the kid a disservice by putting his own feeling above the kid’s future and it would serve him better to be adopted by a couple more capable of raising him.
    Last edited by KurtW95; 08-17-2018 at 07:38 AM.
    Good Marvel characters- Bring Them Back!!!

  5. #35
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    Since Jubilee has been brought up as well, she’s also being irresponsible and selfish.
    Your answer is in the story. You are effectively arguing with a work of fiction. Good luck with that.

  6. #36

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    Some of you are forgetting that Roger Gocking the Porcupine was around to take care of Gerry while Jess was out. That same Roger is/was Jess' love interest. Hopeless did a fantastic job and made the whole baby thing work.

    Roger wasn't exactly a great father to his own child but he was definitely doing what he did for her. Jess whipped him into shape literally. He's a better father, human being and superhero because of her. Jess, Roger and Gerry made a great team together.

  7. #37
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreaded Porcupine View Post
    Some of you are forgetting that Roger Gocking the Porcupine was around to take care of Gerry while Jess was out. That same Roger is/was Jess' love interest. Hopeless did a fantastic job and made the whole baby thing work.

    Roger wasn't exactly a great father to his own child but he was definitely doing what he did for her. Jess whipped him into shape literally. He's a better father, human being and superhero because of her. Jess, Roger and Gerry made a great team together.
    I believe there is a subtext about him being able to express his nurturing and caring side outside of the more traditional fatherhood role he was expected to fulfil in his previous family.

    I wonder how many people here actually read these stories? I would recommend Spider-Woman to anyone. I often wondered why it didn’t get a higher profile. At the time it was one of the best books on the stands.

    All of these issues were explored in these stories because the writers are not political provocateurs but instead choose to write about issues that they are passionate about in fiction. Moaning about fictional decisions made by fictional characters seems rather pointless to me. The best way to join that conversation is to write more fiction, and the best way to write successful fiction is to be empathetic with the characters rather than force them into ideological boxes.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 08-17-2018 at 08:29 AM.

  8. #38

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    This post has gone really off track. In regards to analogs, the X-Office has at least made it clear that they wish to remove some of them off the table.
    Last edited by PhoenixLives; 08-17-2018 at 09:43 AM.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I believe there is a subtext about him being able to express his nurturing and caring side outside of the more traditional fatherhood role he was expected to fulfil in his previous family.

    I wonder how many people here actually read these stories? I would recommend Spider-Woman to anyone. I often wondered why it didn’t get a higher profile. At the time it was one of the best books on the stands.

    All of these issues were explored in these stories because the writers are not political provocateurs but instead choose to write about issues that they are passionate about in fiction. Moaning about fictional decisions made by fictional characters seems rather pointless to me. The best way to join that conversation is to write more fiction, and the best way to write successful fiction is to be empathetic with the characters rather than force them into ideological boxes.
    I read every issue. It was my number one pull at the time. I thought Hopeless did a masterful job.

  10. #40
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreaded Porcupine View Post
    I read every issue. It was my number one pull at the time. I thought Hopeless did a masterful job.
    He absolutely did, and none of the questions asked here about motherhood and or fatherhood went unaddressed in one form or another.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixLives View Post
    This post has gone really off track. In regards to analogs, the X-Office has at least made it clear that they wish to remove some of them off the table.
    Mainly because the original post mentions Jess in passing and suggests the kid should be jettisoned from the book. Making passing comments that seek to undermine the entire point of the last successful run will bring fans out of the woodwork every time. Even if it isn't the main question it is right there in the opener:

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    and Spider-Women (lose the kid)
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 08-17-2018 at 10:18 AM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreaded Porcupine View Post
    I read every issue. It was my number one pull at the time. I thought Hopeless did a masterful job.
    Same here. I thought it was one of Marvel's better books at the time and it dealt with parenthood in a somewhat plausible way.

  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    The whole issue is entirely tangential to the thread and seems more ideological than anything to do with comics. Insisting that a child needs a father is entirely removed from the stories being told. The thread is about a possible editorial direction at Marvel and I can confidently state that Marvel are not editorially making this kind of value judgment against single parents.
    Was that the argument being made? I couldn't figure it out. Even then, it's not true because Roger is her adoptive father in practice.
    Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

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  13. #43
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    if Marvel comes for Miles they will see fan rage like never before
    The J-man

  14. #44
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    Was that the argument being made? I couldn't figure it out. Even then, it's not true because Roger is her adoptive father in practice.
    The way I see it Roger, somebody who feels unable to live up to the expectations of gender in his previous relationships, is her adoptive second mother in practice. He immediately adopts a nurturing role and this not only goes unchallenged it is greatfully accepted and encouraged. This parrellels his inability to fully be the villain his costume would suggest, and the way Jess sees beyond his surface apperence and assigned role in order to bring out his heroism. Talking about this just reminds me how great it was.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    if Marvel comes for Miles they will see fan rage like never before
    They won't be coming for Miles. Miles isn't going anywhere.

    Are they going to pare down duplicate characters, like not having both a teen Jean and an older Jean running around? Looks that way. And I think that's a good move.

    But that doesn't mean that, say, the various Spider characters will be purged. Having both Miles and Peter is not the same as, say, having regular MU Peter and Ultimate Universe Peter both active in the MU at the same time.

    Just like having X-23 and Logan together is not the same as having Old Man Logan and original flavor Logan sharing space together. The latter is redundant, the former is not.

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