How Strong Is Captain America?

[vitruvian]

Nothing in nature can be measured precisely,

Lots of things in nature CAN be measured precisely, subject to the limitations of the uncertainty principle... and those don't kick in at macroscopic levels at all.

[JKtheMac]

Lots of things in nature CAN be measured precisely, subject to the limitations of the uncertainty principle... and those don't kick in at macroscopic levels at all.

You know I am not talking about individual measurements. I am talking about variation.

[mathew101281]

Honestly, as much as I love the OHBOTMU, I prefer ranges over hard numbers. Seems like there was a backup feature in an annual one time trying to explain how strong Spider-Man (I think) was. They presented the characters in groups: Thor, Herc and Hulk were part of one crowd, and Cap, Panther, and DD in another, with a great many groups along the way in between (Spidey did not like how low a group he fell into).

I agree. Strength isnt exact like that. That’s why you have weight lifting contests and the same guy/gal doesn’t win every time. Strength and speed vary from day to day between individuals. Plus power tiers create way more conflict then more ridged hierarchies where one character is clearly the strongest, fastest etc. Nebulous power tiers are better.

[JudicatorPrime]

An athletic male can lift between 125 to 170 lbs. Marvel says Steve is above peak athleticism and can lift approx. 800 lbs. so yeah close to JK's number.

I always thought that 800 lbs. figure was loosely based on what the strongest man could lift when they first introduced OHOTMU decades ago. If so, they might want to revisit both the measure and definition of "peak" human strength. There are real life athletes than can dead lift 1,100 lbs these days. (Proof that contrary to some religious precepts, mankind does, indeed, continue to evolve.) In theory, Cap's serum and regular intensive training should put him at that level as well. Add adrenalin, or other psychological factors and I could see him being even stronger under extreme conditions.

[JudicatorPrime]

Part of the issue is that several writers in the past stressed that what made Captain America so admirable is that he does what he does without any super-powered augmentation. I think most of the current writers at Marvel are Cap fans who want to have their cake and eat it - they've got so used to saying that Cap is better than other heroes because he has no super-powers that they won't give that up... but they also want him to have super-powers!

This is true. And in many respects he's like Batman in that respect. The difference is that Batman could have superhuman strength if he wanted to do so. He has the wealth and the R&D to safely increase his strength, durability, etc., like many of his super powered colleagues. That he chooses not to was too big of a leap for me. But his writers and fans love it; they prefer him without powers or too highly advanced armor and armament -- unless he's fighting Superman or something like that.

[kilderkin]

I always thought that 800 lbs. figure was loosely based on what the strongest man could lift when they first introduced OHOTMU decades ago. If so, they might want to revisit both the measure and definition of "peak" human strength. There are real life athletes than can dead lift 1,100 lbs these days. (Proof that contrary to some religious precepts, mankind does, indeed, continue to evolve.) In theory, Cap's serum and regular intensive training should put him at that level as well. Add adrenalin, or other psychological factors and I could see him being even stronger under extreme conditions.

Not to be too off topic but athletes breaking previous limits is not in and of itself proof of evolution

In fact there's actually a fair amount of research to show that as a species humans are generally physically weaker than we were, at a physiological level, than when we were more rudimentary

evolution isn't proven by the exception but by the rule, generally speaking, a species all getting stronger would support it, not a few individuals, even thousands of individuals would be insufficient when those individuals are already out of the ordinary for the other billions

it does prove we have developed better ways of reaching our potential, but that doesn't in and of itself link back to our genetic development, it could be a demonstration of adaptation which could lead to evolution, but it's not evident by any means

linking this to caps strength, you are quite correct that that 800 lbs limit is outdated now

I seem to recall some reference he could get to 2 tons but I can't recall where

a quick image search and I found him and d man benching he hit the 1100 lbs mark and didn't seem overly exerted

[LordAllMIghty]

I've always assumed he was a ton to 2 tons range now.

[kilderkin]

I've always assumed he was a ton to 2 tons range now.

That was the value I recalled, perhaps incorrectly, as soon as I saw the question

I just can't remember where I remember it from

[Triniking1234]

I always thought that 800 lbs. figure was loosely based on what the strongest man could lift when they first introduced OHOTMU decades ago. If so, they might want to revisit both the measure and definition of "peak" human strength. There are real life athletes than can dead lift 1,100 lbs these days. (Proof that contrary to some religious precepts, mankind does, indeed, continue to evolve.) In theory, Cap's serum and regular intensive training should put him at that level as well. Add adrenalin, or other psychological factors and I could see him being even stronger under extreme conditions.

Yes, when they came up for a numerical value for Steve's strength they probably used real world records from those days as reference.

[DrNewGod]

I always thought that 800 lbs. figure was loosely based on what the strongest man could lift when they first introduced OHOTMU decades ago. If so, they might want to revisit both the measure and definition of "peak" human strength. There are real life athletes than can dead lift 1,100 lbs these days. (Proof that contrary to some religious precepts, mankind does, indeed, continue to evolve.) In theory, Cap's serum and regular intensive training should put him at that level as well. Add adrenalin, or other psychological factors and I could see him being even stronger under extreme conditions.

Yes, when they came up for a numerical value for Steve's strength they probably used real world records from those days as reference.

IIRC, that's also the weight a strength score of 20 (max for a normal human) allowed a character to lift (440kg or~ 880 lbs) under the old Hero System RPG. Not saying there's any relationship between Hero and OHOTMU, but they came out at about the same time.

[XPac]

Yes, when they came up for a numerical value for Steve's strength they probably used real world records from those days as reference.

I imagine as human beings are seemingly getting stronger, Steve's strength level will power creep up as well.

It theoretically should be above whatever the current real life bench press is.

I'm wondering if they maybe should just bump it up to just sort of 1 ton, and unofficially say 1 ton is the floor for meta human strength.

[vitruvian]

IIRC, that's also the weight a strength score of 20 (max for a normal human) allowed a character to lift (440kg or~ 880 lbs) under the old Hero System RPG. Not saying there's any relationship between Hero and OHOTMU, but they came out at about the same time.

Heh... yeah, the timing is probably too tight for them to have based that on even the first edition of OHOTMU directly, but I do remember noticing that back in the day. Of course, they also had the Push mechanic which meant a standard human with STR 10 could push it by 10 and lift that much, and a Cap Expy with STR 20 could push to 30 and lift four times as much, or about a ton and a half. I guess they had the same take on how comic book physics and biology work as some here... I mean, a factor of four is even more than many are arguing. ;-)

[davew128]

Using a current world record in the deadlift of 1,100 versus Cap lifting 800 is not a good comparison because the lifts being compared are not the same. In the OHOTMU the lif being used for comparison is a press. There is a world of difference between deadlifting and pressing, which is pushing a weight over your head. The closest lifting version of a press would be the clean and jerk, where the record is less than 600 pounds. Put in comparison, there was an issue of Avengers (170ish) where Cap is in the training room doing arm curls with 500lb dumbbells.

[JudicatorPrime]

I imagine as human beings are seemingly getting stronger, Steve's strength level will power creep up as well.

It theoretically should be above whatever the current real life bench press is.

I'm wondering if they maybe should just bump it up to just sort of 1 ton, and unofficially say 1 ton is the floor for meta human strength.

I think the Super Soldier Serum and its recipients should be nonspecifically classed as potentially superhuman. But then again, I tend to view the SSS like any other technological invention where upgrade or obsolescence is the natural product cycle. In Steve's case, I'd probably establish that his form of the SSS has a built in adaptive catalyst that automatically triggers upgrades over time based on environmental and intensive bio-data factors. And because the SSS was designed specifically attuned to Steve's biology, others who may have received secondary or pirated versions of the SSS lack that key feature. From there it's a short walk to reevaluating Steve's performance scores to the antechamber of superhuman, given that the SSS has been in Steve's system for ~80 years and that he's experienced an inordinate amount of hostile conditions over that period of time.

Steve would hate me, because I'd give him strength in the 3 - 8 ton range...which means more often than not that he'd have to really pull his punches when facing those hordes of faceless -- but otherwise normal human -- lackeys that he regularly faces, or risk killing them with a single punch or shield toss.

Now that we've addressed his strength, let's discuss his shield and body armor. Because I hate seeing his foes deliberately direct their attacks at his shield, which barely covers his torso, let alone his entire body. Even characters with devastating omnidirectional "all area effect" attacks somehow always manage to fire at his shield. (I'm looking at you Firelord, Human Torch, Monica Rambeau, Silver Surfer, etc., etc., etc.) Utterly ridiculous!

[CaptCleghorn]

I'm not so sure any world record of lifting is applicable here. Cap's supposedly at the peak of human capabilities. Obviously, if a record is X pounds, Cap should be able to lift AT LEAST that. We also have accounts of women lifting cars off of babies and such. I'd also assume Cap to be generally capable of such feats of supposedly superhuman strength as well.

Look, there are many ultra-smaht science types in the Marvel universe who can't figure out exactly how the Super Soldier serum works. Why wouldn't it be able to tap into unseen potential that we all have within us to lift cars off of babies? The idea of the serum to to put Cap at the level of being at least as strong as anyone not otherwise modified. So feats not outrageously superhuman but still feats no other person could do unaided should be possible.