Who can take on the gods of destruction and zeno

[Kirika]

What characters can take on the gods of destruction and zeno, both trying notably and without effort.

[Nik Hasta]

If you can take Zeno, you can take the Gods of Destruction.

Lucifer Morningstar perhaps? He could probably have a good go at the peak of his powers.

Elaine Belloc.

Living Tribunal at his peak maybe.

[T51R]

The Lord of Nightmares, but invoking her would be as good as committing suicide.

The three Chousin, together.

Tenchi-Kami.

PR Beyonder.

PR Molecule Man.

Nabeshin(though this might be unfair, because he's from "beyond" the 4th Wall, which would be like a step up from PR Beyonder?)

[Nik Hasta]

The Choushin couldn't do it, I don't think. Zeno obliterates universes with minimal effort. The Choushin aren't quite in that range. They can mess around on a significant fraction of universe level but I don't think they could bust it that easy.

[T51R]

The Choushin couldn't do it, I don't think. Zeno obliterates universes with minimal effort. The Choushin aren't quite in that range. They can mess around on a significant fraction of universe level but I don't think they could bust it that easy.

I checked, and you're right. Their best feats are for precision-grade creation, not destruction.

[The Arbiter]

Zeno is so strange for Rumbles. He has no defense feats. He has bodyguards suggesting he is in fact in need of protection. It seems silly to think he is limited in some ways compared to his destructive nature, but it does seem to suggest that.

He can't keep up with Dyspo for example despite slow mo replay

[Nik Hasta]

I checked, and you're right. Their best feats are for precision-grade creation, not destruction.

I skimmed through OVA 3 real quick.

Tokimi and Tsunami blow away a significant chunk of a galaxy simply by having their attacks meet. When they are at a stalemate, Washu warns them not to move because the resulting backlash would destroy the third dimension entirely. They then discarnate into the Hyperdimension beyond the Universe itself leaving that level of power still running through their abandoned physical forms.

The resulting backlash from Tenchi almost waking up into full Tenchi-Kami obliterates even more of the galaxy and makes dimensional quake that is felt from the third dimension all the way through the 11th and into the hyperdimension itself. Washu and Tsunami then repair all the damage done in seconds with little visible effort.

They are potent and, I imagine, Zeno would know he had been a in a fight and the Gods of Destruction would likely be all dead. But the Choushin have nothing quite on the level of point and clicking an entire universe.

Zeno is so strange for Rumbles. He has no defense feats. He has bodyguards suggesting he is in fact in need of protection. It seems silly to think he is limited in some ways compared to his destructive nature, but it does seem to suggest that.

He can't keep up with Dyspo for example despite slow mo replay

Indeed, a lot of this thread is inference based on his power being somewhat consistent in terms output and durability and whatever but we've got very little evidence of that. I mean, if your default move is to destroy the universe then I guess high speed targeting is a bit unnecessary.

Beerus being afraid of him implies stuff but it's implication only really.

[The Arbiter]

Unrelated note: who here thinks when 17 wished back /all/ the erased universes, he inadvertently restored the 13-18th universes as well?

Or do we figure Toriyama is just not that clever :P

[The Dog]

Zeno is so strange for Rumbles. He has no defense feats. He has bodyguards suggesting he is in fact in need of protection. It seems silly to think he is limited in some ways compared to his destructive nature, but it does seem to suggest that.

He can't keep up with Dyspo for example despite slow mo replay

Considering his personality, I wouldn't be surprised if he has bodyguards simply because he heard of them once and got a pair simply because he thought they were "cool". As for his lack of defense feats, its kind of hard to get defense feats for a being who can casually wipe out entire timelines and the immortal non-euclidean horror infecting it with a gesture.

[BitVyper]

Unrelated note: who here thinks when 17 wished back /all/ the erased universes, he inadvertently restored the 13-18th universes as well?

Or do we figure Toriyama is just not that clever :P

Toriyama is... actually pretty good at handling plot in a continually developing serialized format, so it would/will most likely depend on the needs of his story at the time.

Androids/Cell were kind of a mess of designing and redesigning villains and extending arcs to make all these transformations happen, but on the other hand, there's like, really clear character arcs and fairly tight theming throughout that builds pretty organically toward a well foreshadowed resolution. I don't know how much of a team effort it all is with editors and stuff, but he is, at the very least, smart enough to listen to good ideas.

And it wouldn't be the first time we've seen him hold onto little details like the androids having inexhaustible energy supplies for years and years.

Edit: As for this, I have to say that time travel creating an alternate universe with an alternate Zeno that the original Zeno is unaware of speaks to him having at least SOME limits. Mind you, it's entirely possible that Zeno is playing dumb about everything, but as of current, the fact that human tech can do this and that it's something that really upsets the entire celestial bureaucracy, kind of points to there being a chink in his omnipotence. This could be very bad for him in a fight with the Choushin, who have absolutely zero problems with causing massive alterations to history and just rolling back time.

Edit 2: For that matter, as has been noted, the Choushin operate in higher dimensions, and the end of OVA 3 SEEMS to suggest that you'd have to actually destroy them in the Hyperdimension to put them down, which would make destroying them in the third dimension something like a ring out that they can just come back from. I can't say I'm entirely confident that Zeno's broad scale reality ending stuff would actually function in the Hyperdimension, and without that, he's got no other feats.

[wjowski]

...Urza with prep?

[T51R]

I can't believe I forgot this.

"Zeno, I've come to bargain...and I've brought Starlord with me."

[wjowski]

I can't believe I forgot this.

"Zeno, I've come to bargain...and I've brought Starlord with me."

Given what went down in IW, that would actually lessen his chances...