The Shrike vs. The God Emperor of Mankind

[The Arbiter]

Before that happens, Shrike just dumps the other 6 onto spikes in his silly end of time death zone. Then he handles Flash at his leisure.

His speed plus "screw you I stick you where and when I want" stuff is just too much for everyone else here. Flash could start lending speed but it's too late by the time Superman's initial synapse starts firing.

On top of that, well, putting the Shrike down permanently is... Impossible? Kassad, with insane aid from galaxy-busting kinds of forces, succeeded in doing all of nothing at all to the Shrike in any way that affected anything except making him briefly feel proud.

Galaxy busting what now??

[The Arbiter]

Ok, I'm back. And I read up a bit on some stuff in the meantime.

There is no galaxy busting. Closest thing was the Technocore's plan to wipe out the unnecessary organic life via the hellwhip brain killing stuff. But again, that may have immense scale, but it targeted organic life only. And even then pretty sure the bodies of people were intact. The idea that the Shrike would survive that is more because he's a robot demon and less because of durability.

We see Shrike get "killed" by less than universal forces. So that little nugget of fan extrapolation is bonkers, and I'm saying this as a fan that loves the character and has made arguments for them before.

Here is the more concrete stuff:

1: Nemes and her twins are durable enough to get pinpoint blasted by a spaceship for over a minute to the point where it slags that chunk of mountain she is on and eventually shoves her under the rock where she then spends several years trapped without once losing consciousness or turning her shield off. This same spaceship is a prototype for a class of vessel that can one shot enemy ships that hide /inside/ of red stars as a means to camaflouge themselves. Can we pass that level of weapon feat on to the prototype ship? Dunno. That's for wiser minds than me. - The Shrike can rip right through Nemes and her twin's shields as he does the same thing with Kassads phase suit as well.

2: Nemes mentions that the forces she and the Shrike are generating with their fight would typically have flattened the surrounding landscape for miles (acres? can't remember) if it were not for some fancy internal tech inside of them specifically designed to keep those collateral affects under control.

3: the FORCE multipurpose rifle has 2 different energy weapons on it. One of which generates a wide angle beam that is "hotter than the surface of the sun". The other setting can drill an inch wide hole nearly a full kilometer deep into granite. Raul (from the later books) decides /not/ to pick this gun up because he thought it would be utterly ineffective against the Swiss Guard soldiers that were pursuing him. He figured all its fancy settings would just make them mad. The Swiss Guard were all essentially nuke proof and the general figured it was likely impossible for any terrestrial weapon to break the armor. The Shrike slaughters thousands of Swiss Guard in mere moments. At one point he basically tears the general to absolute shreds (I'm talking limbs barely hanging on) simply because said general bumps into him.

4: that same FORCE rifle was used on the Shrike but didn't do squat other than frustrate him with lessened mobility due to lava under his feet.

There's more but this is a decent starting list. I figure Wally might have a /tiny/ speed edge, but it's too close to really bother arguing that point again.

To answer some earlier points about the Shrikes BFR, yes he can dump you not just far away in terms of distance, but also in terms of decades. It's a fairly casual thing for him. At one point he farcasts an entire spaceship across the galaxy. Is it faster to perform than speed lending? Dunno. Maybe not? He does the smaller stuff in the span of single footsteps or with a gesture, but we don't see the spaceship scene on panel so to speak.

Another point to his BFR is that while he doesn't have to be touching you, I do get the impression that if he moves you to his Tree, he then has to physically grab and stick you on it. I didn't get the impression he can simply port you onto a spike personally.

Thanks for listening to my rant. I have the books so can answer specific questions, but they are huge so it may take time. =) Anything I forget?

[big_adventure]

Just a point for galaxy-busting: Kassad is helped by the human UI, which is more powerful than the LTB, and those guys are stated to have killed a galaxy as a power source.

I never said at all that Kassad or the Shrike were Galaxy Busters, or were capable of resisting such force.

Now, we do have Nemes (or a clone) stating that while using their full phase shift, moving or affecting an object not so encapsulated would require all of the energy in the universe. And of course the Shrike acts straight through that, appearing inside the phase shift of a clone and OSKOing the bastard. Note: I am NOT claiming that this means the Shrike is a universe buster or anything of the sort. Like I said from the beginning, I don't know that Shrike can dish high-end class 100 level damage: I kind of doubt it. Otoh, it can probably take that level of punishment to some extent, but even if it is hurt or slagged, it can literally come back right away.

I mean, the Shrike is hard to really use, because it never really has to fully exert itself, AND it clearly lets certain things happen because they are "supposed to" or because his LTB masters tell him to.

Anyway, it really comes down to whether the Shrike can get rid of the hard to hurt guys before they can act, something he can do. Farcasting them into a black hole does that. Then it's him and Wally, and Wally gets destroyed because his esoterica do nothing here.

[Nik Hasta]

I appreciate the clarification big but I think you have to concede that saying;

Shrike is MUCH larger and covered in spines that cut through phase shift fields that are basically as strong as the universe.

Is a bit of a misleading statement because it infers that Shrike is doing things on a universal scale or similar.

[big_adventure]

I appreciate the clarification big but I think you have to concede that saying;



Is a bit of a misleading statement because it infers that Shrike is doing things on a universal scale or similar.

I apologize for that, what I was really staying was that Flash is screwed because all he can really do against a guy he can't esoteric-out is to punch. But punching a massively bigger, massively stronger, just-as-fast at worst foe covered in capable-of-cutting-damn-near-anything spikes is a recipe for losing. Especially when said foe can dump you wherever and whenever it wants to, including places you are not going to survive.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Well that's the argument you're going to get it seems

The Flash can vibrate, phase, create tornadoes, sonic booms and hit with the IMP without breaking his hand punching class 100s

It seems all the Shrike can do is BFR and run after him to impale him on a spike?

Even setting aside stuff like getting punched for thousands of miles by someone as fast/faster than him, the Flash doesn't even need durability if he can phase through the blows.

Im really unclear on how it's handling the Flash alone much less taking care of the rest of the league at the same time. At the very least Flash can keep it occupied with vibrations, attacks, perhaps throwing wonder wonans tiara at it at lightspeed or cutting it with her lasso, long enough for the others to react although sounds like the IMP alone would end it

By quite simply ripping him to pieces.

As has already been pointed out, at worst the Shrike is only "as fast", and given that flat zero of The Flash's esoteric abilities are going to work he's going to 1) Have to outlast the Shrike somehow (hint: he can't) 2) Beat him to death, you know the thing covered in spikes sharp enough to tear through, as already pointed out, crazy durable armor (hint: he can't do this, either).

At the least I'm amused though, got that going for you.

[Captain Morgan]

Again, Wally can, for example, just dump all of his speed into Kyle, which basically makes Kyle into the Silver Surfer. This is not a gradual process-- if a Flash dumps all their speed into someone, it happens well, fast. (Go figure.) We are talking instantaneously relative to the perspective of the Flash. Doing this leaves Wally vulnerable but it doesn't really matter under rumbles conditions if it grants his team the win. Given Wally's speed, Kyle should rather easily be able to counter the various shenanigans proposed here by returning from BFR, the ring's various esoeteric defensive abilities shutting such shenanigans down, or directly draining the energies of time itself from the Shrike.

If Shrike is FASTER than Wally, then he can probably kill Wally before he does this. Although, I'm not really clear on how Shrike takes out a GL regardless of speed. Black holes won't do it, and they can return from BFR into far space or other dimensions. Possibly even time dumping, though I'm not really clear on how time dumping works as a win under rumbles rules.

[The Dork Knight]

All I'm seeing is a mass of contradictions and/or hyperbole that don't really bear out what seems to be happening in the book. For instance

Now, we do have Nemes (or a clone) stating that while using their full phase shift, moving or affecting an object not so encapsulated would require all of the energy in the universe. And of course the Shrike acts straight through that, appearing inside the phase shift of a clone and OSKOing the bastard. Note: I am NOT claiming that this means the Shrike is a universe buster or anything of the sort. Like I said from the beginning, I don't know that Shrike can dish high-end class 100 level damage: I kind of doubt it. Otoh, it can probably take that level of punishment to some extent, but even if it is hurt or slagged, it can literally come back right away.

How does that work if the Shrike isn't exerting all of the energy in the universe?

[The Dork Knight]

I never said at all that Kassad or the Shrike were Galaxy Busters, or were capable of resisting such force.

No. Just implied

On top of that, well, putting the Shrike down permanently is... Impossible? Kassad, with insane aid from galaxy-busting kinds of forces, succeeded in doing all of nothing at all to the Shrike

[The Dork Knight]

By quite simply ripping him to pieces.

As has already been pointed out, at worst the Shrike is only "as fast", and given that flat zero of The Flash's esoteric abilities are going to work he's going to 1) Have to outlast the Shrike somehow (hint: he can't) 2) Beat him to death, you know the thing covered in spikes sharp enough to tear through, as already pointed out, crazy durable armor (hint: he can't do this, either).

At the least I'm amused though, got that going for you.

Flat zero of Flash' s esoteric abilities are going to work? Feats for the Shrike for resisting flash vibrating and causing his molecules to explode?

The only feats for the "crazy durable armour" so far are nothing on the scale of the kind of people Flashes hurt with their punches

Just as a basic thing even the people arguing for the Shrike are unsure whether he can hurt class 100s. Flash hurts class 100s just fine. Aka flash can hurt Shrike just fine, spikes or not

[big_adventure]

Again, Wally can, for example, just dump all of his speed into Kyle, which basically makes Kyle into the Silver Surfer. This is not a gradual process-- if a Flash dumps all their speed into someone, it happens well, fast. (Go figure.) We are talking instantaneously relative to the perspective of the Flash. Doing this leaves Wally vulnerable but it doesn't really matter under rumbles conditions if it grants his team the win. Given Wally's speed, Kyle should rather easily be able to counter the various shenanigans proposed here by returning from BFR, the ring's various esoeteric defensive abilities shutting such shenanigans down, or directly draining the energies of time itself from the Shrike.

If Shrike is FASTER than Wally, then he can probably kill Wally before he does this. Although, I'm not really clear on how Shrike takes out a GL regardless of speed. Black holes won't do it, and they can return from BFR into far space or other dimensions. Possibly even time dumping, though I'm not really clear on how time dumping works as a win under rumbles rules.

Thing is, one of Shrike's main things is taking people and transfering them instantly onto spikes straight through their bodies. GL ring is awesome, but the meat sleave inside is still just that.

[Captain Morgan]

Thing is, one of Shrike's main things is taking people and transfering them instantly onto spikes straight through their bodies. GL ring is awesome, but the meat sleave inside is still just that.

And one of the things the rings do is protect the wearer from mortal harm. This has actually included saving Kyle when he's been stabbed through by blades that bypassed his shields. (He let Sinestro shank him during some time travel shenanigans as part of a ruse. It wasn't fun but it didn't knock him out or anything.) I'm skeptical of the blades bypassing the shields in the first place, but even that doesn't guarantee a win.

That is setting aside that Kyle can just shut down the attempt with Wally's speed.

[The Arbiter]

Well this suddenly took off. I've got some stuff to say. I'll be free in a bit

[The Arbiter]

Flat zero of Flash' s esoteric abilities are going to work? Feats for the Shrike for resisting flash vibrating and causing his molecules to explode?

The only feats for the "crazy durable armour" so far are nothing on the scale of the kind of people Flashes hurt with their punches

Just as a basic thing even the people arguing for the Shrike are unsure whether he can hurt class 100s. Flash hurts class 100s just fine. Aka flash can hurt Shrike just fine, spikes or not

What's the toughest non outlier thing Flash has harmed via vibrating molecules?

In case it wasn't clear earlier, the Phase Suit that Nemes or Kassad used is generally the same or slightly worse durability than of the Shrike itself. I posted a bunch of feats up the page. Would love to hear your thoughts.

[daBronzeBomma]

I thoroughly regret derailing this thread by bringing up the JLA against the Shrike. This was supposed to be Shrike vs Warhammer 40K.

So .... shrike vs each of the chaos gods, warp and non- warp, who wins?