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  1. #1
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Default Rian Johnson's main problem

    Sure, there are many tropes in SW that were overused, so he wanted to break all of them in SW.

    Snoke? He's just Snoke and will die soon.
    Luke? Ok he's not gonna train you, and he once had dark thought.
    Disobey the order and become a hero? No thanks.
    Rey's parents? Just random people.

    However he failed to create anything new and good. I'm not a purist, I like the prequel and think Luke should pass the torch unlike in the old EU, but I really dislike his take.

  2. #2
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Sure, there are many tropes in SW that were overused, so he wanted to break all of them in SW.

    Snoke? He's just Snoke and will die soon.
    Well, to be fair, Snoke was never the main villain, Kylo was. From a narrative standpoint, I'm not sure what else we "needed" to know about Snoke, if that makes any sense.
    Luke? Ok he's not gonna train you, and he once had dark thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Disobey the order and become a hero? No thanks.
    Not sure what you're referring to here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Rey's parents? Just random people.
    With all due respect, I do not think this was Rian Johnson's fault, but the fault of us fans overhyping the possibilities in our minds. In actuality, while Johnson did decide what the answer would be (and did have the freedom to decide just about anything), it's made repeatedly clear in TFA that the identities of Rey's parents are not important inasmuch as the idea of her learning to accept that they're gone for good and she needs to stop hanging on to the past as the expense of her future. Heck, a good part of her story arc in TFA is finding a surrogate family along the course of her adventures. There was never any suggestion that she was anything but the kid of nobodies. We just ignored that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    However he failed to create anything new and good. I'm not a purist, I like the prequel and think Luke should pass the torch unlike in the old EU, but I really dislike his take.
    I think that Johnson created one of the best, personally. While I don't agree with your points, fair enough if the movie didn't speak to you.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  3. #3
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    His main problem is that he doesn’t care about the franchise and the characters.
    Good Marvel characters- Bring Them Back!!!

  4. #4
    BANNED Starter Set's Avatar
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    And let's not forget the awful and terribly timed humor.

  5. #5
    Ultimate Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    I don't know if it's really an anti-trope, but I think it's also the first "Saga" film since AOTC not to open with a Star Destroyer. (Although of course they show up fairly soon).
    chrism227.wordpress.com Info and opinions on a variety of interests.

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  6. #6
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    His main problem is that he doesn’t care about the franchise and the characters.
    And we know this how?
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  7. #7
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    The go-to answer will be Luke's characterization. And it was a big point of contention, don't get me wrong. But it doesn't mean someone doesn't get the characters. I have a friend whose SW IQ is impeccable who prefers Luke's journey in the new canon as opposed to his Legends canon. Hates Legends, in fact. And if anyone claimed he didn't care about the franchise or care about/get the characters he'd talk circles around you till your head spun to prove you wrong. So its not objective fact that Luke's characterization was "wrong".
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  8. #8
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Well, to be fair, Snoke was never the main villain, Kylo was. From a narrative standpoint, I'm not sure what else we "needed" to know about Snoke, if that makes any sense.
    Hard to say, the first one obviously set him up as the "big bad", it's not like he must become the main focus, but we do need to know more about him because there are PT and OT but he was never mentioned, he can't come from nowhere and we need to know HOW did he create this first order after the Empire's downfall. NONE of it was explained.


    Not sure what you're referring to here.
    They disobeyed the order and went to hijack the enemy ship.


    With all due respect, I do not think this was Rian Johnson's fault, but the fault of us fans overhyping the possibilities in our minds. In actuality, while Johnson did decide what the answer would be (and did have the freedom to decide just about anything), it's made repeatedly clear in TFA that the identities of Rey's parents are not important inasmuch as the idea of her learning to accept that they're gone for good and she needs to stop hanging on to the past as the expense of her future. Heck, a good part of her story arc in TFA is finding a surrogate family along the course of her adventures. There was never any suggestion that she was anything but the kid of nobodies. We just ignored that.
    Surely it was. She could use lightsaber to defeat Ren without proper training, random background makes her a 100% Mary Sue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    The go-to answer will be Luke's characterization. And it was a big point of contention, don't get me wrong. But it doesn't mean someone doesn't get the characters. I have a friend whose SW IQ is impeccable who prefers Luke's journey in the new canon as opposed to his Legends canon. Hates Legends, in fact. And if anyone claimed he didn't care about the franchise or care about/get the characters he'd talk circles around you till your head spun to prove you wrong. So its not objective fact that Luke's characterization was "wrong".
    I hate the legends as well, but TLJ was awful, too.

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  10. #10
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    I hate the legends as well, but TLJ was awful, too.
    More than fair, the point was just that there are people out there who get the characters just fine who are also fine with a bit of a tragic turn for Luke. That the pomp and circumstance of Luke in the Legends history isn't the only possible workable scenario for the character's future. Hell more often than not its the people who argue so stridently against it who make key mistakes in the lore. Like the idea that Luke would never in his life almost do something so dark. Even though he almost had before. Or that he should have been wise enough to avoid another call of the dark side, even though since Empire Strikes Back we've had the words of Yoda telling that the dark side is always waiting in the wings and can always seep in if not careful, and since AOTC we have an example of a seasoned, aged Jedi Master whom for all his years and experience fell to the dark side.

    Luke could have absolutely made the mistake he made. Now, I'm also of the opinion though he wouldn't have turmed hermit unless for a greater plan, like Obi-Wan and Yoda. That's where my issue personally lies. The history though I was fine with.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 08-18-2018 at 04:22 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  11. #11
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    More than fair, the point was just that there are people out there who get the characters just fine who are also fine with a bit of a tragic turn for Luke. That the pomp and circumstance of Luke in the Legends history isn't the only possible workable scenario for the character's future. Hell more often than not its the people who argue so stridently against it who make key mistakes in the lore. Like the idea that Luke would never in his life almost do something so dark. Even though he almost had before. Or that he should have been wise enough to avoid another call of the dark side, even though since Empire Strikes Back we've had the words of Yoda telling that the dark side is always waiting in the wings and can always seep in if not careful, and since AOTC we have an example of a seasoned, aged Jedi Master whom for all his years and experience fell to the dark side.

    Luke could have absolutely made the mistake he made. Now, I'm also of the opinion though he wouldn't have turmed hermit unless for a greater plan, like Obi-Wan and Yoda. That's where my issue personally lies. The history though I was fine with.
    Even Mark Hamill didn't accept it.

    It could happen to Luke, yes, but the point is ppl DON'T WANT to see it happens, nor does it help the story.

    More importantly, it requires a lot of buildup to make us understand WHY did Luke, who chose to believe someone like Vader, and after so many years of growning up as a Jedi Master could have dark thoughts and even wanted to take action. The movie didn't spend the effort to the character development at all. Instead we got something that is very bizzard and inconsistent.

    Rian Johnson doesn't really care about building things, he only wanted to destroy the tropes, but that doesn't help you with the movie.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking; 08-18-2018 at 05:31 PM.

  12. #12
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Another thing is that if you truly want to make Luke to go that way, you need to start build it up in the first one, but NO. We saw him still wear the Jedi master robe and the last scene was showing him accepting the lightsaber.

    None of it ever indicate his attitude at all. Rian Johnson simply wanted to create something shocking without consider the consistency and consequences.

  13. #13
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    His main problem is that he doesn’t care about the franchise and the characters.
    Based on his treatment of the characters.
    Good Marvel characters- Bring Them Back!!!

  14. #14
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Even Mark Hamill didn't accept it.

    It could happen to Luke, yes, but the point is ppl DON'T WANT to see it happens, nor does it help the story.

    More importantly, it requires a lot of buildup to make us understand WHY did Luke, who chose to believe someone like Vader, and after so many years of growning up as a Jedi Master could have dark thoughts and even wanted to take action. The movie didn't spend the effort to the character development at all. Instead we got something that is very bizzard and inconsistent.

    Rian Johnson doesn't really care about building things, he only wanted to destroy the tropes, but that doesn't help you with the movie.
    Some people didn't want to see it. Its not a universal sentiment. Rarely anything is. Truly how negative do the majority of fans feel about things? I suppose we'll see when Episode IX hits.

    And no it doesn't require any build up. The Force has been established for 40 years. 40 years of fans knowing what the dark side is, what it can do, and how it can creep in out of nowhere. It happened to Luke, briefly, and he relented. Not unlike how it happened to Luke, briefly, on Death Star II and he relented. Not unlike how it happened to an elderly seasoned Jedi Master in Count Dooku, whom didn't relent and actually fell. It does not matter who the Jedi in question is. Period. The dark side has its ways of creeping in and every single one has to be ever vigilant, for all their lives. There is no time table in which they "graduate" from the threat of Dark Side persuasion. That was permeated in Star Wars lore years and years before the sequel trilogy was even a glimmer of a project. There simply is no inconsistency with the young man who saved Darth Vader becoming a Jedi Master who would eventually grow afraid of a young student's darker potentials and momentarily making a big mistake that would cost him his Academy. Any fan is free to hate that particular direction all they want. It of course didn't have to go in this direction. There are lots of things they could have done with Luke that would have fit. And I'm not trying to argue people can't dislike what direction was chosen. They just can't argue inconsistency, at least to do so is what actually belies an unfamiliarity with the mythos.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 08-18-2018 at 07:54 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  15. #15
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Some people didn't want to see it. Its not a universal sentiment. Rarely anything is. Truly how negative do the majority of fans feel about things? I suppose we'll see when Episode IX hits.

    And no it doesn't require any build up. The Force has been established for 40 years. 40 years of fans knowing what the dark side is, what it can do, and how it can creep in out of nowhere. It happened to Luke, briefly, and he relented. Not unlike how it happened to Luke, briefly, on Death Star II and he relented. Not unlike how it happened to an elderly seasoned Jedi Master in Count Dooku, whom didn't relent and actually fell. It does not matter who the Jedi in question is. Period. The dark side has its ways of creeping in and every single one has to be ever vigilant, for all their lives. There is no time table in which they "graduate" from the threat of Dark Side persuasion. That was permeated in Star Wars lore years and years before the sequel trilogy was even a glimmer of a project. There simply is no inconsistency with the young man who saved Darth Vader becoming a Jedi Master who would eventually make a big mistake that would cost him his Academy.
    Yeah, he relented, and he got over it, and he got over what Yoda and Obi Wan had failed to do: seeing the light side of Vader. THIS is the whole point of the story, he got over the seduction of the Dark Side and saw what happened to Vader after: Redemption.

    And after years of Jedi training you told me he took a huge step back, trying to kill someone who hasn't done anything bad? Then after it had abandoned Jedi way? Without buildup and further explanation?

    No thanks. Even the PT(I like it) had spent so much effort to let us see how did Anakin become Vader. Yeah dark side is strong, but the downfall is more than "dark side lured him", the change, the twist needs buildup, especially on Luke.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking; 08-18-2018 at 07:58 PM.

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