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  1. #31
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Nobody in Star Wars is incorruptible. The Dark side of the force is such an ever present threat you had two orders devoted to the dynamic. Nobody is immune to it, not even the freaking chosen one. No matter how good Luke is, remember that the guy who had one job turned to the dark side and spent 20 years being evil before he finally did the deed.

    Yoda makes this a very clear point in the prequels that the dark side is incredibly easy to spiral out of control and that without careful vigilance you end up with monsters or the Sith. It's that simple. It's made even worse by the fact that the most common to go evil have super powers which puts an awful lot of people at a disadvantage.

    This is why Kylo Ren was so scary to Luke. Kylo Ren is another Vader in the making and you have to remember that as good as Luke is, that fight could've gone very differently. In context, that fight had two guys who aren't all that into it and one flipped out on an old man who didn't really want to be there. Remember that otherwise Vader was absurdly powerful. This could've gone far differently. Why would Luke get that lucky twice? Not to mention that for Luke's context, Anakin slaughtered an entire village of Tuskens (more or less trained fighters) out of anger, Anakin (while in addition to the clones) fought through a temple of Jedi at the height of their power. Now Luke has a small number of students with fledgling Jedi and one guy who is while not Anakin, is up there. We know he was turning prior to the night at the temple and Luke had to make a decision, and he choose the decision that the old Jedi damn well would've made, and couldn't do it.

    The old Jedi had been willing to assassinate a public official (despite being the sith lord) in a coup against the then Republic. The masters rolled up for that. Palpatine isn't wrong when he says that this is treason. Luke made an executive decision the old masters would've made. Upon failing to stop Ben, he comes to realize the Jedi might very well have been wrong. His return after encountering Rey and his meeting with Yoda is important because of this. The Jedi of the past are terrible at what they do, you got two sith lords in 10 years out of that (even longer considering the old EU) and so the Jedi need to change and be remembered and grow from how they had been believed to be, not as they are. The Jedi came back but they didn't exactly grow for the experience.

    Luke freaking out and leaving made complete sense given the context of the prequels and that Luke learned much of what he knows from that. He may have saved Vader but that had some miraculous circumstances surrounding that. Not to mention that his conflict with Vader had less to do with the Rebellion winning then people think. Luke being there did result in the Death Star being destroyed but you didn't need a Jedi for that. The Rebellion still escaped Hoth and regardless the Death Star II was going to be destroyed had Luke been there or not. Luke could've been on the ground fighting Vader and it still wouldn't have affected the Victory. Had Vader still had the lightsaber he could've even stabbed Palpatine. The galaxy got along fine enough without the Jedi, no reason to think they can't again.
    Yes, but Luke had got over with much dark situation like I've pointed out, he's not gonna fail for that without enough buildup.

    The old Jedi are stubborn, they caused their own downfall and still tried to let Luke kill Vader, Luke is the hero because he was able to see what they couldn't see and do what they couldn't do. That's the whole point of the story. Pair him with the old master simple destroys all these previous characterization of Luke and the meaning of the story. Also remember Palpatine was the Sith Lord, he did tons of evil already. Ren was entirely different here.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking; 08-19-2018 at 09:51 AM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    It's not.

    In EP 1-6 we saw all the conflict and the factions, if you want to suddenly insert a faction, a villain who is never shown in previous installments, you need explanation about how, it's about consistency.
    There wasn't a prequel trilogy when Return Of The Jedi came out, not were there any serious plans to ever make one.

    If we want to be fair to the current trilogy and Snoke we should give it another 15 years and see if his backstory has been updated. Because that is how long it took for the movies to give the Emperor a name.

    Doesn't matter, he still got more buildup and importance than Snoke. And that was in the late 70s-80s, modern villains require more buildup.
    Oy, hands of the goalposts.

    How did he sway them? Even Palpatine wasn't able to do something like that.
    *Looks at the sheer number of Darkside Force Users working for Palps*
    Are you quite sure of that?

    Doesn't matter, he got beaten by Rey and was almost killed.
    Well, as a villain that is his job. Pun intended.
    I think you may be missing the point of Kylo Ren here. He's no unstoppable Vader. And he's facing somebody with the same kind of raw power his precious Skywalker blood gives him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Yes, but Luke had got over with much dark situation like I've pointed out...
    The Dark Side is not something you get over, ever.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    If we want to be fair to the current trilogy and Snoke we should give it another 15 years and see if his backstory has been updated. Because that is how long it took for the movies to give the Emperor a name.
    We can also see if the fans come around on Last Jedi like they did with Empire, which the fans were split on at release.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Yes, but Luke had got over with much dark situation like I've pointed out, he's not gonna fail for that without enough buildup.

    The old Jedi are stubborn, they caused their own downfall and still tried to let Luke kill Vader, Luke is the hero because he was able to see what they couldn't see and do what they couldn't do. That's the whole point of the story. Pair him with the old master simple destroys all these previous characterization of Luke and the meaning of the story. Also remember Palpatine was the Sith Lord, he did tons of evil already. Ren was entirely different here.
    No. Luke was going to strike down Vader had he not noticed that Vader is a cyborg. He gave into his anger and beat him down to the point he cut off his hand, lightsaber included. Kind of like a certain situation on Bespin. This is why Luke makes note of it and why his confrontation isn't with Vader. The figure in Vader's armor on Dagobah being Luke and Luke noting the hand was the all to real situation of him ending up like his father. He very well could've killed Vader right then and he would be trapped in the same position his father was. Had he not noticed Luke would be in a different position. This is later echoed in TLJ when Luke makes the decision to strike down Ben and can't do it. What Luke knows is the old Jedi and how they would've done things. Notably not above assassination to prevent things like Sith empires. But Luke isn't his father and he isn't one of the old Jedi, and he can't bring himself to do it no matter how ethical the decision is. It totally keeps in line with Luke of the prior films because Luke can't do it, the only problem is that Ben only saw the lightsaber and rightfully freaked out.

    Also note that while Palpatine was the Sith Lord, we know that. The rest of the galaxy does not and all who may are assassinated by Vader or die before they can tell anybody. The old Jedi are right for trying to put him down, but also remember that the Jedi are "keepers of the peace, not warriors". Luke would largely be familiar with the Clone Wars era and the things the Jedi did during this time-frame. Meaning that a lot of what he knows of the Jedi are them as warriors which are willing to assassinate public officials.

    Age, wisdom, and context for his fight with Vader are important in noting how he initially chose to deal with Ben. Because if the Jedi aren't working to curb this, then what is Luke's options here? This is what he knows and like before he can't do it. He's Luke Skywalker, he isn't actually going to do it because he could become his father, and he most definitely is not the old Jedi.
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  5. #35
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    Luke in ROTJ was a brash kid trying to get his lost family back. He wasn't thinking about the greater good or the fate of the galaxy, but about what it would mean to have his father as a good person.

    Luke when dealing with Ben in TLJ was a seasoned Jedi Master with the weight of the galaxy on his shoulders, desperate to prevent another Vader from rising and causing the deaths of billions. Because Jedi Masters are detached and look at the greater good above all else.

    That is the exact point Luke himself made. As a Jedi Master, he made a mistake he would never have made when he was younger and burdened with fewer responsibilities. His thought processes and priorities were completely different. Luke, like the Jedi Masters before him, had gone from an idealistic stance to that of an utilitarian, and on a galactic scale that is too much for anyone, even a Jedi Master to handle alone.

  6. #36
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    There wasn't a prequel trilogy when Return Of The Jedi came out, not were there any serious plans to ever make one.

    If we want to be fair to the current trilogy and Snoke we should give it another 15 years and see if his backstory has been updated. Because that is how long it took for the movies to give the Emperor a name.
    Yes and when the ST came out there are previous installments, so you need to explain where did this all powerful new baddie come out.


    *Looks at the sheer number of Darkside Force Users working for Palps*
    Are you quite sure of that?
    Most of them were not jedi. Either Sith or trained Dark Side users.

    Well, as a villain that is his job. Pun intended.
    I think you may be missing the point of Kylo Ren here. He's no unstoppable Vader. And he's facing somebody with the same kind of raw power his precious Skywalker blood gives him.
    But you need explanation for that. We don't see Luke beat the crap out of Vader in ANH, he got beaten badly by Vader in TES.

    To make it reasonable you need to make reason for Rey, sure bloodline is old trope, but simply making her nobody's children without further explanation makes her even more Sueish.

    The Dark Side is not something you get over, ever.
    It is, and that's why Luke was a hero in the OT.

  7. #37
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    No. Luke was going to strike down Vader had he not noticed that Vader is a cyborg. He gave into his anger and beat him down to the point he cut off his hand, lightsaber included. Kind of like a certain situation on Bespin. This is why Luke makes note of it and why his confrontation isn't with Vader. The figure in Vader's armor on Dagobah being Luke and Luke noting the hand was the all to real situation of him ending up like his father. He very well could've killed Vader right then and he would be trapped in the same position his father was. Had he not noticed Luke would be in a different position. This is later echoed in TLJ when Luke makes the decision to strike down Ben and can't do it. What Luke knows is the old Jedi and how they would've done things. Notably not above assassination to prevent things like Sith empires. But Luke isn't his father and he isn't one of the old Jedi, and he can't bring himself to do it no matter how ethical the decision is. It totally keeps in line with Luke of the prior films because Luke can't do it, the only problem is that Ben only saw the lightsaber and rightfully freaked out.
    You missed a lot in RotJ.

    Luke was keep trying to avoid fighting Vader, trying to get him back after learning he was his father, once Anakin Skywalker. At that time Vader was pretty much rotten to the core and had done terrible things. And still Luke didn't get angry until he mentioned corrupting Leia.

    Ren was nothing like Vader, it's just possible future. Even by ordinary moral standards, you aren't gonna kill this person simply because he might do something evil in the future. And how did Luke come up with that? It's like he had took a HUGE step back, turning into something worse than his ANH self.


    Also note that while Palpatine was the Sith Lord, we know that. The rest of the galaxy does not and all who may are assassinated by Vader or die before they can tell anybody. The old Jedi are right for trying to put him down, but also remember that the Jedi are "keepers of the peace, not warriors". Luke would largely be familiar with the Clone Wars era and the things the Jedi did during this time-frame. Meaning that a lot of what he knows of the Jedi are them as warriors which are willing to assassinate public officials.
    He did terrible things, was behind the Clone Wars. Ren was entirely different. Not even the old Jedi would consider to kill him like they didn't do it with Anakin even thought there was darkness rising inside him.



    Age, wisdom, and context for his fight with Vader are important in noting how he initially chose to deal with Ben. Because if the Jedi aren't working to curb this, then what is Luke's options here? This is what he knows and like before he can't do it. He's Luke Skywalker, he isn't actually going to do it because he could become his father, and he most definitely is not the old Jedi.
    He wouldn't even consider to do it. Even the old Jedi wouldn't consider to do it or Anakin would be dead before EP III.

  8. #38
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    Luke in ROTJ was a brash kid trying to get his lost family back. He wasn't thinking about the greater good or the fate of the galaxy, but about what it would mean to have his father as a good person.

    Luke when dealing with Ben in TLJ was a seasoned Jedi Master with the weight of the galaxy on his shoulders, desperate to prevent another Vader from rising and causing the deaths of billions. Because Jedi Masters are detached and look at the greater good above all else.

    That is the exact point Luke himself made. As a Jedi Master, he made a mistake he would never have made when he was younger and burdened with fewer responsibilities. His thought processes and priorities were completely different. Luke, like the Jedi Masters before him, had gone from an idealistic stance to that of an utilitarian, and on a galactic scale that is too much for anyone, even a Jedi Master to handle alone.
    No, he was thinking the greater good, but in a more accurate way. The old Jedi thought for "greater good" but they actually took it wrong, which is why they fail. Luke believed in his father, and that saved the galaxy. That's the whole point of the PT/OT story.

    Again remember the difference between Vader and Ren. Vader was indeed evil and had done many terrible crimes, Luke had seen a lot of them. Ren was just a padawan at that time, he hadn't done anything comparable to Vader. Now tell me, why would Luke move a huge step back, turning into something that is much much worse?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    No, he was thinking the greater good, but in a more accurate way. The old Jedi thought for "greater good" but they actually took it wrong, which is why they fail. Luke believed in his father, and that saved the galaxy. That's the whole point of the PT/OT story.

    Again remember the difference between Vader and Ren. Vader was indeed evil and had done many terrible crimes, Luke had seen a lot of them. Ren was just a padawan at that time, he hadn't done anything comparable to Vader. Now tell me, why would Luke move a huge step back, turning into something that is much much worse?
    How does abandoning his friends to destroy the shield generator and the Death Star on their own help the greater good? How does putting himself at greater risk of not only being killed, but becoming like Vader, help the greater good? He took a huge gamble and greatly reduced the rebelllion's odds in succeeding in stopping a proven planet-busting weapon and of surviving to fight another day for his evil father. If the Ewoks lost to the imperial forces that was it for the Galaxy even if Vader turned back to the light. That's how reckless Luke was. He put the fate of the galaxy in the hands of the Ewoks.

    What was Lukw doing in TLJ? He was considering the 'would you kill Hitler as a baby' question, because he knew if Ben continued down that path he'd kill millions of innocents. And he didn't do it in the end. He stopped himself without swinging the blade. He never actually tried to kill Ben, as opposed to Vader who he was indeed trying to kill at the end on the Death Star.

    It's very different when you're entire goal is centered on one person and the rest of the galaxy is basically a distraction as opposed to when your thoughts are preoccupied about the entire galaxy all the time.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    What's this about Luke showing restraint towards Vader? Luke beat the **** out of him so badly that Vader later died from the injuries. It wasn't until after he'd kicked Vader's ass in a fit of fury that Luke managed to stop himself from delivering a blow that would've ended just bit earlier.

    If anything, the situation with Ben is an improvement since he stopped himself before doing anything really, but it was still a case of super bad timing.

    The dark side has always been lurking around within Luke and he's never been incorruptible.
    I really think we must have seen or read the scenes differently. Luke had to be goaded several times throughout return to raise his lightsaber. It was only after they threaten Leia that he lost it. Where as the tent scene his first instinct was to ignite his lightsaber.

  11. #41
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    How does abandoning his friends to destroy the shield generator and the Death Star on their own help the greater good? How does putting himself at greater risk of not only being killed, but becoming like Vader, help the greater good? He took a huge gamble and greatly reduced the rebelllion's odds in succeeding in stopping a proven planet-busting weapon and of surviving to fight another day for his evil father. If the Ewoks lost to the imperial forces that was it for the Galaxy even if Vader turned back to the light. That's how reckless Luke was. He put the fate of the galaxy in the hands of the Ewoks.

    What was Lukw doing in TLJ? He was considering the 'would you kill Hitler as a baby' question, because he knew if Ben continued down that path he'd kill millions of innocents. And he didn't do it in the end. He stopped himself without swinging the blade. He never actually tried to kill Ben, as opposed to Vader who he was indeed trying to kill at the end on the Death Star.

    It's very different when you're entire goal is centered on one person and the rest of the galaxy is basically a distraction as opposed to when your thoughts are preoccupied about the entire galaxy all the time.
    He didn't abandon his friends, he knew Vader and the Emperor was searching for him. If he didn't go there would be more imperial forces following Leia and Han's squad, thus increase the chance of failure.

    Yes he took a huge gamble, because he believed in Vader's good side, and it paid off. Vader killed the Emperor and saved Luke. Now you are telling me he suddenly turned into some much worse figure, who wanted to kill Ren simply because he MIGHT do something terrible? Even the old Jedi didn't try to kill Anakin before he helped Palpatine in EP III.

    If you cannot believe in one person, it's not going to save the galaxy, that's pretty much the main theme of SW PT and OT. That's WHY the old Jedi had failed and Luke had won in OT.

  12. #42
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    I really think we must have seen or read the scenes differently. Luke had to be goaded several times throughout return to raise his lightsaber. It was only after they threaten Leia that he lost it. Where as the tent scene his first instinct was to ignite his lightsaber.
    Also remember Vader was indeed evil and had done countless crimes, Ren was just a padawan, all those are just "possible futures".

  13. #43
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    It's not about what anyone had done. It's about what would save the most lives. Luke isn't a court or a judge who determines the severity of a person's crimes. He's a protector of the peace who has to be wary of new threats. He knows everything his father did, and how hard it was to pull him back into the light at the very end. He knows Ben could be just as bad and kill just as many people, and his responsibilities are far greater as a Jedi Master than they were before he became a full-fledged Jedi. He is considering the risks.

    But being a padawan himself in ROTJ and a master in TLJ means he must treat the situations exactly the same. Age, experience, and responsibility mean nothing.

  14. #44
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    It's not about what anyone had done. It's about what would save the most lives. Luke isn't a court or a judge who determines the severity of a person's crimes. He's a protector of the peace who has to be wary of new threats. He knows everything his father did, and how hard it was to pull him back into the light at the very end. He knows Ben could be just as bad and kill just as many people, and his responsibilities are far greater as a Jedi Master than they were before he became a full-fledged Jedi. He is considering the risks.

    But being a padawan himself in ROTJ and a master in TLJ means he must treat the situations exactly the same. Age, experience, and responsibility mean nothing.
    EP6 has proven the correct way to save the most lives. That's what makes him different than the old Jedi, that's the whole point of the trilogy and a huge point of his character.

    Even a typical old Jedi Master doesn't consider to kill someone BEFORE they went evil, we don't see Obi Wan, Mace Windu or Yoda thinking about killing Anakin when there are obvious darkness rising in him.

  15. #45
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Yeah, he relented, and he got over it, and he got over what Yoda and Obi Wan had failed to do: seeing the light side of Vader. THIS is the whole point of the story, he got over the seduction of the Dark Side and saw what happened to Vader after: Redemption.
    He got over it THAT TIME. The dark side doesn't go away. You can't just beat it once and it never bothers you again.

    And after years of Jedi training you told me he took a huge step back, trying to kill someone who hasn't done anything bad?
    That's the thing, he DIDN'T try to kill somebody that hadn't done anything bad. That was the real tragedy. He panic for a brief moment. That's all he did. And everything fell apart from there.

    Then after it had abandoned Jedi way? Without buildup and further explanation?
    What more explanation do you need? After being built up to be the great Jedi hero and the savior of everybody, he messed up in the worst way and caused the son of his sister and best friend to embrace the darkside.

    In that one moment, he failed everything he was working for and let down the people he cared about the most. If that's not a good reason to stick your head in the dirt and hide on the far side of the galaxy, what would be?

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