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  1. #91
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    The point of the saga was very much not that Luke had moved past the risk of dark side temptation by the end. That was not his journey in that saga. That's no one's journey because via the mythos that is outright impossible. The point of the saga, as it became when all was said and done, was that the son was the new hope to save the father and they together saved the galaxy. Nowhere in there is the inclination that Luke becomes this figure who could not ever be touched by the dark again. Again the exact opposite is hammered home in not only that trilogy, but the prequel trilogy that followed. That you always, no matter what, MUST be on your guard, because the threat never goes away.

    Any argument that Luke should have grown beyond a general threat in his elder years does now and always will lie in a direct contradiction of a piece of Star Wars lore. It can happen again. Johnson didn't HAVE to choose to have it happen again. At the end of the day you could have gone tons of different directions. But he was within the rightful realm of the lore to create such a scenario regardless.
    It is, the saga had spent effort to let us see the mistake of the old Jedi, and how Luke was able to do what they couldn't. The prequel pushed even further on this topic.

    Again he might be touched by darkness, but not something like Ren's condition. Even as the young boy he was able to endure all the threatening other than Leia from Vader. Inconsistent here.

    Ren hadn't done anything really bad, everything is just "possible future", why would Luke put it into action? Again this is something really low, not even the old Jedi would do, and you are keep saying if Luke didn't fall for that he's gonna become flawless Sue, no.

  2. #92
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    And that's bad storytelling. Many ppl want to know all about that in the movie.
    As someone who took writing classes in college, I don't think that that info is as necessary as you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    True, that's what I'm saying, Rian Johnson was breaking tropes but not good at creating his own good plot.
    Can't agree with you on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    She is a newbie to lightsaber, even Luke had to spend a lot of effort to master it. Lightsaber is like that, if you don't have proper training you will end up hurting yourself.
    Canon doesn't seem to be supporting that anymore. In the current Marvel Star Wars series, Leia, Han, and Chewie defended themselves with lightsabers when they had nothing else. Sabine Wren was able to get a hang of using the Darksaber relatively quickly. While training would certainly be needed to become a master, Rey's use of it is hardly egregious in context of the world building that has been built around the film.
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  3. #93
    iMan 42s
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    A thing worth pointing out is that you don't need to be highly skilled to use a lightsaber, you need to be highly skilled to use it effectively. Combat experience more than makes up for shortcomings in the immediacy with the weapon as the OT heroes have used them, most notably Luke when he barely had much training at all. Even worth noting is that the Stormtrooper by the name of Kreel, while not the most capable of swordsman was indeed able to use his just fine.

    Keep in mind that while they are training sabers, the old Jedi handed the weapons out to children which means that for the most part, they are child proof weapons. And we know that they are still kids when they go out to collect the kyber crystal for the hilts. Which means they are still children while in possession of the real weapon. Sure they have a familiarity with the weapon, but if a child is more than capable of using it, and a bunch of guys and a farmboy from Tatooine can use it just fine, why is it a problem for someone who uses an impromptu staff, who would actually have prior combat experience to use it? She also had the deck clearly stacked in her favor the first time and got some more training from Luke.
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  4. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    And Luke's reaction is nowhere close to what you imply it is. Holding a weapon is not the same thing as trying to kill a person. Point a weapon at a person isn't even the same thing.
    Have to disagree. You don't pull out a gun if you aren't willing to pull the trigger. Yes he regretted it but fleeting moment or not he thought about doing it.

  5. #95
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    Have to disagree. You don't pull out a gun if you aren't willing to pull the trigger. Yes he regretted it but fleeting moment or not he thought about doing it.
    Willing to pull the trigger and intending to pull the trigger are two different things.

  6. #96
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    Luke's big issue is that he did consider killing Ben but can't do it. Ben however not knowing Luke couldn't definitely is an issue Ben has and of course him knowing Luke even considered it in the first place. But regardless Ben understandably flipped out over it.
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  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    It's not gonna change anything, Palpatine had the clones ready, just waiting for the Jedi to come first.
    Without Anakin, Palpatine doesn't survive the Prequels. Mace Windu kills him. Order 66 is never given.

  8. #98
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    I'd say Johnson's main problem is him thinking Reylo is sexy not that he tried to subvert Star Wars tropes. And even, judging by the comments, he didn't really subvert them that much.

  9. #99
    Ultimate Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Without Anakin, Palpatine doesn't survive the Prequels. Mace Windu kills him. Order 66 is never given.

    Remember Mace doesn't really learn that Palpatine is the Sith Lord until Anakin tells him directly, although he's certainly very suspicious of the Chancellor's motives and is about to tell him to ease off the emergency powers now that Greivious is dead. I remember in some of the novels around the time, he suspected somebody close to Palpatine who was using him as a puppet/figurehead, but ruled out Palpatine himself because he assumed Palpatine had enough control already.
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  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    The go-to answer will be Luke's characterization. And it was a big point of contention, don't get me wrong. But it doesn't mean someone doesn't get the characters. I have a friend whose SW IQ is impeccable who prefers Luke's journey in the new canon as opposed to his Legends canon. Hates Legends, in fact. And if anyone claimed he didn't care about the franchise or care about/get the characters he'd talk circles around you till your head spun to prove you wrong. So its not objective fact that Luke's characterization was "wrong".
    It's like Mark Hamill said himself. When his generation was young they were idealists that we're going to change the world and we'll they didn't do anything. Luke's journey was actually pretty reasonable.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaosfist View Post
    It's like Mark Hamill said himself. When his generation was young they were idealists that we're going to change the world and we'll they didn't do anything. Luke's journey was actually pretty reasonable.
    Finally somebody gets it!
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  12. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Willing to pull the trigger and intending to pull the trigger are two different things.
    The line seems pretty thin from my perspective. Always assume a gun is loaded and that it can go off at any time. It's really no wonder Ren pulled the hut down on him. What did Luke think was going to happen when he ignited the lightsaber? It doesn't help that the idea that Ben had already been turned comes from a Luke who can no longer be trusted.

  13. #103
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    It doesn't help that the idea that Ben had already been turned comes from a Luke who can no longer be trusted.
    The alternative is that the version of the story Kylo was telling is the truth and he definitely isn't a trustworthy source.

    Luke at that point had nothing to loose and nothing to gain from lying to her. He didn't want to help her anyway and it was obvious he didn't care how she felt about him.

  14. #104
    Incredible Member regg215's Avatar
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    I think the biggest problem with Johnson's Star Wars is that he spent so much time focusing on making a movie that Fans wouldn't expect and forgot that his job was to make a movie that fans would like. I think last jedi could have had the exact same plot and revelations but would have been received a lot better if he had taken some time to include some really small but important scenes. If he had included the following scenes which wouldn't change the main story at all but would have made the movie feel much more rewarding to fans:

    - Scene of luke mourning han- I really do not understand how this was not included, how they thought that this was a scene they could just allude to but not show baffles me. Fans were disappointed the never got to see them interact but including this would have really helped the movie.
    -Admiral ackbar dies on screen, again you don't have to change out the holdo role for ackbar but having him die off screen like some random stormtrooper or something was really bad.
    -Leia uses force powers but in a more believable way, How the whole space Mary poppins thing slipped past editing stuns me. That they didn't see that this scene would get mocked makes no sense. I think most fans were absolutely looking forward to seeing Leia use the force but because they went for a way over the top scene. The way she used the powers took an highly anticipated moment and made it a joke.
    - Have Luke actually show up on Crait. The force projection thing added nothing to the film and if he was gonna die anyway why have him go out like that. Having luke truly fall in battle rather than exhaustion would have really added to the moment, rather than being devoid of emotion like it was.

    Obviously there are some other changes that I think would have helped but even if the movie was exactly the same plot wise just adding these small changes I think would have really improved how fans received this film. Instead Johnson was so determined to have the movie be unexpected that he forgot a huge part of directing a major franchise like Star Wars is including small scenes that make it feel rewarding to the long time fans.
    "You know, there are some words I've known since I was a schoolboy: "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.. The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged"- CAPT. Picard

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by regg215 View Post
    - Scene of luke mourning han- I really do not understand how this was not included...
    Funny. I quite liked the scene where Luke is shown mourning Han. It's one of my most favouriteones in the entire film, which is my 2nd to 4th (depending on mood) favourite Star Wars film of the lot.

    -Admiral ackbar dies on screen.
    He's a joke character who is popular for a very tired meme. And he died on screen. He was standing right there on that bridge, plainly visible. And then he blew up.

    -Leia uses force powers but in a more believable way...
    Nobody would have had a problem with it if Luke did it.

    - Have Luke actually show up on Crait. The force projection thing added nothing to the film and if he was gonna die anyway why have him go out like that. Having luke truly fall in battle rather than exhaustion would have really added to the moment, rather than being devoid of emotion like it was.
    You can only have emotions after some serious violence has been committed?
    A dude making the choice to sacrifice himself by pulling the most out there Force power stunt we've seen so far in the movies and then serenely dissipating away like Yoda while watching a binary sunset isn't emotional?

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