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  1. #76
    Ultimate Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    Because they're part of a much more established organization than what Luke was trying to build, and they're arrogant as ****, so they didn't fear a potentially dark side without any resources (as far as they knew) while Ben had contact with Snoke.

    And these are the same Jedi masters that couldn't tell that obviously evil Palpatine was a super powerful sith lord or that Anakin married Padme. They were pretty damn blind to things and I don't think they ever knew about Anakin slaughtering the sand people or any of the other bad stuff going on within him.

    And again, it was a moment of weakness that Luke immediately regretted, even before **** went to hell. I mean, if you prefer Luke to be a flawless and incorruptible paragon of good then that's fine. I just think it's more interesting, and perfectly in character, for him to be shown struggling with the dark side every now and again since that's a big part of his family.
    That's kind of one thing that bugged me a bit-Yoda senses Anakin's pain/rage, and Obi-Wan wonders why Anakin is on Tatooine. Yet we never really see them ask Anakin about that (Even in the EU/Clone Wars). Yoda also seems to be sensing Anakin and Obi-Wan's argument about Padme in the gunship during the AOTC battle. Guess they were too busy with the war to ask him what was going on?

    I think in the ROTS novel Obi-Wan at least knew that Anakin's mother had passed; and of course film-wise he knows to deliver Luke to the Lars family instead of Mos Espa. There's also a ROTS deleted scene (Although one not available on any of the DVDs/Blu) where we see the "Obi-Wan came by this morning" scene, and it's quite clear he knows something's up. (The scene was shot, there's some footage of it available from one of the BTS docs).



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  2. #77
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Drawing weapon towards someone so closely in his sleep, is trying to murder, just he stopped quick enough.
    It really isn't.

    Until you are actively trying to kill a person it is not attempted murder. Luke was startled. He was not trying to kill him.

    Do you see Mace Windu or Obi Wan Or Qui Gon do such thing against Anakin in his sleep?
    I didn't see Mace or Qui Gon giving Yoda piggy back rides either. It's almost like different characters can do different things at different times.

    Weird, huh?

  3. #78
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    He ignited the light saber to kill Ben as a reaction to his sudden realization of how bad the situation was and the premonition of everything going to hell.

    But he never actually tried to kill Ben. He regretted reacting the way he did almost instantly.
    The situation was fine, his Jedi Order was still there, FO hadn't been dominating like the Empire had been.

    He had experienced such hard time and didn't give up hope, why would he fall for that?

  4. #79
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    It really isn't.

    Until you are actively trying to kill a person it is not attempted murder. Luke was startled. He was not trying to kill him.
    He was, just stopped before it was too late.

    I didn't see Mace or Qui Gon giving Yoda piggy back rides either. It's almost like different characters can do different things at different times.
    Weird, huh?
    Those except Qui Gon are old Jedi, who were stubborn and thought Vader was beyond redemption, even they aren't that low, and why would Luke, the hero who was able to do the right thing in OT fall for it?

  5. #80
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Luke's situation vs Vader in ROTJ being a much more "severe situation" from what happened between Luke and Ben in TLJ is meaningless. Again, that is not how the dark side works. Once it creeps in, you have an internal battle on your hands. The severity or lack thereof of the situation that causes it to seep in is completely irrelevant. Hell, sometimes Jedi fall to the dark side because of a catalyst that isn't even, at face value, negative, rather just having elements of negative emotion. For example, Count Dooku turned to the dark side over a disillusion of the Jedi Order and the Republic, and his reasons for disillusion actually had merit. But that still consisted of negative emotion that eventually was made to corrupt him.

    Basically, the dark side of the Force is a lot like the One Ring. Even if your desires are good and altruistic, it can be twisted to a dark end if you aren't careful. That's the burden of all Jedi. With NO exception.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 08-19-2018 at 02:23 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    The situation was fine, his Jedi Order was still there, FO hadn't been dominating like the Empire had been.

    He had experienced such hard time and didn't give up hope, why would he fall for that?
    He hadn't given up hope.

    He had a moment of weakness which he then overcame.

  7. #82
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    He was, just stopped before it was too late.
    No matter how many times you try to say that, you're still not right. Let me try this.
    No no no + infinity. he wasn't. There. I win.

    It's a major plot point in the movie that Kylo thought Luke had come to kill him and that what had actually happened was that Luke had just briefly paniced for a moment.

    Those except Qui Gon are old Jedi, who were stubborn and thought Vader was beyond redemption, even they aren't that low, and why would Luke, the hero who was able to do the right thing in OT fall for it?
    He never fell for anything. he had a brief moment of panic and doubt. Do you think Luke should not be able to have brief moments of panic or doubt? Should he be expected to act perfectly in ever single situation?

    If you think so, you really don't know the character nearly as well as you think you do.

  8. #83
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    He hadn't given up hope.

    He had a moment of weakness which he then overcame.
    He did, otherwise he would not have drawn out his lightsaber.

  9. #84
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Luke's situation vs Vader in ROTJ being a much more "severe situation" from what happened between Luke and Ben in TLJ is meaningless. Again, that is not how the dark side works. Once it creeps in, you have an internal battle on your hands. The severity or lack thereof of the situation that causes it to seep in is completely irrelevant. Hell, sometimes Jedi fall to the dark side because of a catalyst that isn't even, at face value, negative, rather just having elements of negative emotion. For example, Count Dooku turned to the dark side over a disillusion of the Jedi Order and the Republic, and his reasons for disillusion actually had merit. But that still consisted of negative emotion that eventually was made to corrupt him.

    Basically, the dark side of the Force is a lot like the One Ring. Even if your desires are good and altruistic, it can be twisted to a dark end if you aren't careful. That's the burden of all Jedi. With NO exception.
    We are not talking about Dark Side in general, but on Luke, Luke had resisted something much stronger in RotJ as a young boy, as the Jedi Master there is no way he would be affected.

  10. #85
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    We are talking about the dark side in general because we're talking about Luke, and Luke is a Jedi. The nuances of how the Force works matter to him just like any other Force-sensitive character in the universe. Luke is special in many ways, but that is not one of them. Its an inescapable link that you cannot separate him from. If you tried, you would be betraying the mythos that Lucas created. Yes, Lucas made these rules, not Disney. Again, the fact he resisted a stronger temptation in the past means absolutely nothing.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 08-19-2018 at 03:15 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  11. #86
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    No matter how many times you try to say that, you're still not right. Let me try this.
    No no no + infinity. he wasn't. There. I win.

    It's a major plot point in the movie that Kylo thought Luke had come to kill him and that what had actually happened was that Luke had just briefly paniced for a moment.
    Luke did want to kill Ren, just stopped quick enough.

    He never fell for anything. he had a brief moment of panic and doubt. Do you think Luke should not be able to have brief moments of panic or doubt? Should he be expected to act perfectly in ever single situation?
    He did, yes Luke might have some thoughts in his mind, but such a great hero like him will keep it inside his mind and try to think with reason, not trying to put it into action.

    Again do you see even the old Jedi Masters do that to Anakin? NO.
    If you think so, you really don't know the character nearly as well as you think you do.

  12. #87
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    If you're talking Luke, then you have to consider dark side because he is a Jedi. You cannot separate the two.
    He was a Jedi but not the old stubborn ones, that's the whole point of the saga, he was able to see what they have failed to see, thus he redeemed Vader and help won the war. Even those Jedi don't try to kill Anakin simply because there is darkness inside him.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Do you see Mace Windu or Obi Wan Or Qui Gon do such thing against Anakin in his sleep?
    Don't you think that actually would have been the best idea they would have had in their life? Assuming they didn't chicken out.

    And yeah, I can see Mace 'Vaapad' Windu doing that.

  14. #89
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    The point of the saga was very much not that Luke had moved past the risk of dark side temptation by the end. That was not his journey in that saga. That's no one's journey because via the mythos that is outright impossible. The point of the saga, as it became when all was said and done, was that the son was the new hope to save the father and they together saved the galaxy. Nowhere in there is the inclination that Luke becomes this figure who could not ever be touched by the dark again. Again the exact opposite is hammered home in not only that trilogy, but the prequel trilogy that followed. That you always, no matter what, MUST be on your guard, because the threat never goes away.

    Any argument that Luke should have grown beyond a general threat in his elder years does now and always will lie in a direct contradiction of a piece of Star Wars lore. It can happen again. Johnson didn't HAVE to choose to have it happen again. At the end of the day you could have gone tons of different directions. But he was within the rightful realm of the lore to create such a scenario regardless.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 08-19-2018 at 03:25 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  15. #90
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Don't you think that actually would have been the best idea they would have had in their life? Assuming they didn't chicken out.

    And yeah, I can see Mace 'Vaapad' Windu doing that.
    It's not gonna change anything, Palpatine had the clones ready, just waiting for the Jedi to come first.

    But Mace Windu didn't do it, even in the novel he didn't do it but tried to ask Anakin was he fine when realized Palpatine=Sidious.

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