Rian Johnson's main problem

[Sacred Knight]

You don't "get over it". You remain vigilant, you stay aware, you fight it if it rears up. But you do not just become immune because you face a dark temptation once and beat it. Its ALWAYS there. It doesn't matter who you are.

And after years of Jedi training you told me he took a huge step back, trying to kill someone who hasn't done anything bad? Then after it had abandoned Jedi way? Without buildup and further explanation?

That's exactly what I'm telling you. Except on the fact that he considered killing someone who hadn't done anything bad. The movie makes clear that Ben was falling to the dark side prior. So there is a good chance he was doing bad things behind the scenes. Still a dark thought from Luke? Yes. But not one that comes out of nowhere. Ben was not a normal good student and Luke suddenly decides that he knows he'll eventually go bad. He was already turning. The movie doesn't do a great job of showing how, though, it just says so, and on that I criticize the script. But it does at least say so. Aside from that though, as far as Luke taking a step back? Hell yes it can happen. Now, abandoning all hope afterward? I don't personally subscribe to that, no, as I've already said. I don't like that he just decided to spirit away to die. I certainly don't mind, however, that he questioned the ways of the Old Order. He absolutely should because it was the old Order's shortcomings that allowed Palpatine to infiltrate and take over.

[Slowpokeking]

You don't "get over it". You remain vigilant, you stay aware, you fight it if it rears up. But you do not just become immune because you face a dark temptation once and beat it. Yoda was clear about it a long time ago. Its ALWAYS there. It doesn't matter who you are.

Yes you do. He got over such challenge, and that made him a great hero.

Also if you want to use EP6, remember the situation. In EP6, Vader indeed was a villain, who had committed terrible crimes, he had threatened Luke to lure Leia to the Dark Side. He was evil, he did speak about it. Before that Luke was keep believing him and refused to fight him.

In TLJ, Ren had NEVER committed any kid of evil thing, he wasn't evil at that time as well. It was all possible future. The situation was totally different. If Luke could refuse to fight Vader after learning the truth, I don't see him would want to kill Ren when he hadn't done anything bad yet.

[Sacred Knight]

Not according to the lore of Star Wars you don't. He got over one challenge from the dark side once but nowhere, not in any textual Star Wars reference, does it ever say that that's it. Indeed, lore states the opposite, that you must remain ever aware, because it can always occur. Look at Anakin. He came down from darkness after murdering the Sand People. Worked through it. Became a great Jedi. He fell again. NO textual Star Wars reference relays the idea that you graduate from temptation if you overcome it once. Not main canon, nor Legends canon.

Also if you want to use EP6, remember the situation. In EP6, Vader indeed was a villain, who had committed terrible crimes, he had threatened Luke to lure Leia to the Dark Side. He was evil, he did speak about it. Before that Luke was keep believing him and refused to fight him.

In TLJ, Ren had NEVER committed any kid of evil thing, he wasn't evil at that time as well. It was all possible future. The situation was totally different. If Luke could refuse to fight Vader after learning the truth, I don't see him would want to kill Ren when he hadn't done anything bad yet.

Again this is inaccurate. The movie concretely states that Ben was falling to the dark side at the time. He was already being groomed by Snoke. How Snoke was able to get to him, what sort of things Ben did under Luke's nose, those are the things the movies to this point have falied to relay. But they have relayed that Ben was well on his way to becoming an agent of the dark side when Luke had his moment of temptation. The "scared boy" Luke saw was a reminder, too late, that Ben was not yet lost fully. Not that he wasn't in the process of being lost. Luke tragically exacerbated that fall, but Ben was still allied with Snoke at the time.

[Slowpokeking]

Not according to the lore of Star Wars you don't. He got over one challenge from the dark side once but nowhere, not in any textual Star Wars reference, does it ever say that that's it. Indeed, lore states the opposite, that you must remain ever aware, because it can always occur. Look at Anakin. He came down from darkness after murdering the Sand People. Worked through it. Became a great Jedi. He fell again. NO textual Star Wars reference relays the idea that you graduate from temptation if you overcome it once. Not main canon, nor Legends canon.


Again this is inaccurate. The movie concretely states that Ben was falling to the dark side at the time. He was already being groomed by Snoke. How Snoke was able to get to him, what sort of things Ben did under Luke's nose, those are the things the movies to this point have falied to relay. But they have relayed that Ben was well on his way to becoming an agent of the dark side when Luke had his moment of temptation. The "scared boy" Luke saw was a reminder, too late, that Ben was not yet lost fully. Not that he wasn't in the process of being lost. Luke tragically exacerbated that fall, but Ben was still allied with Snoke at the time.

He got over with it in much more extreme situation, and he refused to kill Vader before as I mentioned, any "lighter" condition didn't work him him.

Ren had done no evil yet, Vader, was nearly entirely swayed to the Dark Side and had done terrible things, Luke still refused to kill him. See it? And thanks for proving that TLJ had done terrible buildup. If we could actually see and know Luke's change or what was happening at that time, things would be different.

But no, and he killed Snoke as well so we might never get a clear clue, bad bad job by Rian Johnson

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

I think what Slowpokeking is trying to say is that Luke showed more restraint with Vader who had a lot of bodies behind him. Then with Ben who hadn't actually done anything yet. So his first instinct to kill Ben is rather bizarre.

[Carabas]

Hard to say, the first one obviously set him up as the "big bad", it's not like he must become the main focus, but we do need to know more about him because there are PT and OT but he was never mentioned, he can't come from nowhere and we need to know HOW did he create this first order after the Empire's downfall. NONE of it was explained.

Let's compare Snoke to Palpatine in Return Of The Jedi.
We didn't know the first thing about Palpatine beyond his job. The films didn't even give him a name in until the Prequels.

They disobeyed the order and went to hijack the enemy ship.

Who did this? What ship? It is very unclear.

Surely it was. She could use lightsaber to defeat Ren without proper training, random background makes her a 100% Mary Sue.

Ren, who is only half-trained and mortally wounded before the fight begins?

[WebLurker]

Hard to say, the first one obviously set him up as the "big bad", it's not like he must become the main focus, but we do need to know more about him because there are PT and OT but he was never mentioned, he can't come from nowhere and we need to know HOW did he create this first order after the Empire's downfall. NONE of it was explained.

I don't know about all that. We're told that the First Order created itself from the remains of the Empire. Snoke was always defined in relation to Kylo (and thus lived and died to advance Kylo's story long before he was killed for real to advance Kylo's story). Honestly, it never bothered me. Then again, I guess I assumed that Snoke's biography would be told in a tie-in novel (called "Snoke," of course ) and that the movie's main focus was in there here and now. I mean, it's not like we got the genesis of the Rebel Alliance in the Saga movies before, or needed to see how Palpatine created the Empire to follow the original movies. IMHO and mileage may vary, of course.

They disobeyed the order and went to hijack the enemy ship.

I don't think they were being shown as heroes so much. Really, the whole point of that story is Poe realizing his faults and learning from that.

Surely it was. She could use lightsaber to defeat Ren without proper training, random background makes her a 100% Mary Sue.

Oh, boy; this again. Rey is not a Mary Sue. That was DOA back in 2015. However, focusing on the saber duel, that was justified in context by everything that came before it in the film.

First of all, in the Jakku scenes, it's established that Rey has some skill in melee combat with her staff (in fact, watch the duel closely; you can she she's trying to use the saber like a staff early on). She's not a total newbie to this (even if lightsabers are new to her). She's fighting Kylo, who is injured and not in good shape (he was shot in the gut with a bowcaster that packed the punch of a mini rocket launcher and slashed across the shoulder of his sword arm); this can be actually be seen, as the longer the duel goes on, the sloppier he gets. His wounds and worsening state level the field a bit to her inexperience.

Also important, Kylo was trying to take her alive. She wasn't facing him fighting at full force, both in terms of his health and in his using the full extent of his abilities. Even more important, Rey spends the majority of the duel retreating and on the run. She's doesn't have a good offense and her defense is mostly related to her being a quicker runner in comparison to the injured Kylo. The tide doesn't turn until she's able to access the Force and use that to gain an advantage. Only then does she start making effective attacks and actually gaining ground, even giving Kylo a few more injuries.

Finally, most importantly, even then, when she has the Force on her side and Kylo is starting to really feel the effects of his wounds, Kylo still almost wins (the scuffle where they're fighting for control of the sabers -- going on after Kylo got his leg wound and is exerting his wounded arm). This wasn't a one-sided match for Rey; she didn't utterly beat Kylo; she was able to escape by the skin of her teeth because Kylo was in terrible shape and not trying to kill her. Nothing Mary Sue about that and the Chekov's guns were loaded, mounted and fired to give us this outcome. Boom! (Insert mike drop here. )

[Dark Soul # 7]

I think what Slowpokeking is trying to say is that Luke showed more restraint with Vader who had a lot of bodies behind him. Then with Ben who hadn't actually done anything yet. So his first instinct to kill Ben is rather bizarre.

What's this about Luke showing restraint towards Vader? Luke beat the **** out of him so badly that Vader later died from the injuries. It wasn't until after he'd kicked Vader's ass in a fit of fury that Luke managed to stop himself from delivering a blow that would've ended just bit earlier.

If anything, the situation with Ben is an improvement since he stopped himself before doing anything really, but it was still a case of super bad timing.

The dark side has always been lurking around within Luke and he's never been incorruptible.

[Starter Set]

Excellent video indeed.

It highlights perfectly why the last jedi is a failure as a movie.

[Slowpokeking]

Let's compare Snoke to Palpatine in Return Of The Jedi.
We didn't know the first thing about Palpatine beyond his job. The films didn't even give him a name in until the Prequels.

Totally different situation.

The OT started with no previous installment. The new trilogy set after RotJ, of course it needs to be explained how did FO rise and where did Snoke come from because it doesn't exist in the OT or PT era, they suddenly come from nowhere without explanation is breaking the consistency.

Who did this? What ship? It is very unclear.

Snoke's big ship.

Ren, who is only half-trained and mortally wounded before the fight begins?

He was powerful enough to destroy Luke's Order. And we saw him doing all the crazy things.

[Slowpokeking]

What's this about Luke showing restraint towards Vader? Luke beat the **** out of him so badly that Vader later died from the injuries. It wasn't until after he'd kicked Vader's ass in a fit of fury that Luke managed to stop himself from delivering a blow that would've ended just bit earlier.

If anything, the situation with Ben is an improvement since he stopped himself before doing anything really, but it was still a case of super bad timing.

The dark side has always been lurking around within Luke and he's never been incorruptible.

No, Luke refused to fight Vader, keep believing there is good in him.

He only went mad for a moment when Vader said about corrupt Leia, and he got over with it.

You also need to remember that Vader was 99% rotten to the core, different situation.

[Slowpokeking]

I don't know about all that. We're told that the First Order created itself from the remains of the Empire. Snoke was always defined in relation to Kylo (and thus lived and died to advance Kylo's story long before he was killed for real to advance Kylo's story). Honestly, it never bothered me. Then again, I guess I assumed that Snoke's biography would be told in a tie-in novel (called "Snoke," of course ) and that the movie's main focus was in there here and now. I mean, it's not like we got the genesis of the Rebel Alliance in the Saga movies before, or needed to see how Palpatine created the Empire to follow the original movies. IMHO and mileage may vary, of course.

And that's bad storytelling. Many ppl want to know all about that in the movie.

I don't think they were being shown as heroes so much. Really, the whole point of that story is Poe realizing his faults and learning from that.

True, that's what I'm saying, Rian Johnson was breaking tropes but not good at creating his own good plot.

Oh, boy; this again. Rey is not a Mary Sue. That was DOA back in 2015. However, focusing on the saber duel, that was justified in context by everything that came before it in the film.

First of all, in the Jakku scenes, it's established that Rey has some skill in melee combat with her staff (in fact, watch the duel closely; you can she she's trying to use the saber like a staff early on). She's not a total newbie to this (even if lightsabers are new to her). She's fighting Kylo, who is injured and not in good shape (he was shot in the gut with a bowcaster that packed the punch of a mini rocket launcher and slashed across the shoulder of his sword arm); this can be actually be seen, as the longer the duel goes on, the sloppier he gets. His wounds and worsening state level the field a bit to her inexperience.

Also important, Kylo was trying to take her alive. She wasn't facing him fighting at full force, both in terms of his health and in his using the full extent of his abilities. Even more important, Rey spends the majority of the duel retreating and on the run. She's doesn't have a good offense and her defense is mostly related to her being a quicker runner in comparison to the injured Kylo. The tide doesn't turn until she's able to access the Force and use that to gain an advantage. Only then does she start making effective attacks and actually gaining ground, even giving Kylo a few more injuries.

Finally, most importantly, even then, when she has the Force on her side and Kylo is starting to really feel the effects of his wounds, Kylo still almost wins (the scuffle where they're fighting for control of the sabers -- going on after Kylo got his leg wound and is exerting his wounded arm). This wasn't a one-sided match for Rey; she didn't utterly beat Kylo; she was able to escape by the skin of her teeth because Kylo was in terrible shape and not trying to kill her. Nothing Mary Sue about that and the Chekov's guns were loaded, mounted and fired to give us this outcome. Boom! (Insert mike drop here. )

She is a newbie to lightsaber, even Luke had to spend a lot of effort to master it. Lightsaber is like that, if you don't have proper training you will end up hurting yourself.

[Carabas]

Totally different situation.

I disagree. Totally the same thing.

If the very first instalment of the franchise doesn't have to bother with explaining how the bad guys came to be then the 7th doesn't have to either.
I don't see how it is this big mystery anyway. He's a dude with a ton of political clout backed up by Force powers. What else do you need to know?

And again, original trilogy Emperor: not even as much as a name.

He was powerful enough to destroy Luke's Order. And we saw him doing all the crazy things.

Eh...
Half of them were on his side...

And he may be a great space wizard, but his laserswordfighting skills are clearly lacking.

[SuperiorIronman]

Nobody in Star Wars is incorruptible. The Dark side of the force is such an ever present threat you had two orders devoted to the dynamic. Nobody is immune to it, not even the freaking chosen one. No matter how good Luke is, remember that the guy who had one job turned to the dark side and spent 20 years being evil before he finally did the deed.

Yoda makes this a very clear point in the prequels that the dark side is incredibly easy to spiral out of control and that without careful vigilance you end up with monsters or the Sith. It's that simple. It's made even worse by the fact that the most common to go evil have super powers which puts an awful lot of people at a disadvantage.

This is why Kylo Ren was so scary to Luke. Kylo Ren is another Vader in the making and you have to remember that as good as Luke is, that fight could've gone very differently. In context, that fight had two guys who aren't all that into it and one flipped out on an old man who didn't really want to be there. Remember that otherwise Vader was absurdly powerful. This could've gone far differently. Why would Luke get that lucky twice? Not to mention that for Luke's context, Anakin slaughtered an entire village of Tuskens (more or less trained fighters) out of anger, Anakin (while in addition to the clones) fought through a temple of Jedi at the height of their power. Now Luke has a small number of students with fledgling Jedi and one guy who is while not Anakin, is up there. We know he was turning prior to the night at the temple and Luke had to make a decision, and he choose the decision that the old Jedi damn well would've made, and couldn't do it.

The old Jedi had been willing to assassinate a public official (despite being the sith lord) in a coup against the then Republic. The masters rolled up for that. Palpatine isn't wrong when he says that this is treason. Luke made an executive decision the old masters would've made. Upon failing to stop Ben, he comes to realize the Jedi might very well have been wrong. His return after encountering Rey and his meeting with Yoda is important because of this. The Jedi of the past are terrible at what they do, you got two sith lords in 10 years out of that (even longer considering the old EU) and so the Jedi need to change and be remembered and grow from how they had been believed to be, not as they are. The Jedi came back but they didn't exactly grow for the experience.

Luke freaking out and leaving made complete sense given the context of the prequels and that Luke learned much of what he knows from that. He may have saved Vader but that had some miraculous circumstances surrounding that. Not to mention that his conflict with Vader had less to do with the Rebellion winning then people think. Luke being there did result in the Death Star being destroyed but you didn't need a Jedi for that. The Rebellion still escaped Hoth and regardless the Death Star II was going to be destroyed had Luke been there or not. Luke could've been on the ground fighting Vader and it still wouldn't have affected the Victory. Had Vader still had the lightsaber he could've even stabbed Palpatine. The galaxy got along fine enough without the Jedi, no reason to think they can't again.

[Slowpokeking]

I disagree. Totally the same thing.

If the very first instalment of the franchise doesn't have to bother with explaining how the bad guys came to be then the 7th doesn't have to either.
I don't see how it is this big mystery anyway. He's a dude with a ton of political clout backed up by Force powers. What else do you need to know?

And again, original trilogy Emperor: not even as much as a name.

It's not.

In EP 1-6 we saw all the conflict and the factions, if you want to suddenly insert a faction, a villain who is never shown in previous installments, you need explanation about how, it's about consistency.

Doesn't matter, he still got more buildup and importance than Snoke. And that was in the late 70s-80s, modern villains require more buildup.

Eh...
Half of them were on his side...

And he may be a great space wizard, but his laserswordfighting skills are clearly lacking.

How did he sway them? Even Palpatine wasn't able to do something like that.

Doesn't matter, he got beaten by Rey and was almost killed.