Rian Johnson's main problem

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

The alternative is that the version of the story Kylo was telling is the truth and he definitely isn't a trustworthy source.

Luke at that point had nothing to loose and nothing to gain from lying to her. He didn't want to help her anyway and it was obvious he didn't care how she felt about him.

Maybe not but I think we definitely have more reason to believe Ben's side of the story. I mean if we're keeping Score Kylo has been the more honest of the two. Luke kept important detail out the first time. Who's to say he's not doing it the second time? At this point it's basically a lot of he said she said.

[Carabas]

Maybe not but I think we definitely have more reason to believe Ben's side of the story. I mean if we're keeping Score Kylo has been the more honest of the two. Luke kept important detail out the first time. Who's to say he's not doing it the second time? At this point it's basically a lot of he said she said.

Ren on the other hand made up Luke actually attacking him.
And he omitted that it would actually have been the correct choice if he had killed him in his sleep.

[SpiderClops]

Maybe not but I think we definitely have more reason to believe Ben's side of the story. I mean if we're keeping Score Kylo has been the more honest of the two. Luke kept important detail out the first time. Who's to say he's not doing it the second time? At this point it's basically a lot of he said she said.

It's arguments like these that make me not want to take any of the Last Jedi criticisms from you guys seriously. Yes, let's believe the words of the emotionally immature villain over our good guys, sure.

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

Ren on the other hand made up Luke actually attacking him.
And he omitted that it would actually have been the correct choice if he had killed him in his sleep.

I don't think killing him in his sleep would have been the correct choice. I think the correct choice would have been talking to the guy.

It's arguments like these that make me not want to take any of the Last Jedi criticisms from you guys seriously. Yes, let's believe the words of the emotionally immature villain over our good guys, sure.

It's comments like this that get critics upset. Instead of discussing it and maybe seeing that the movie is flawed and maybe they might have a point. it's somehow thier fault for not liking parts of the movie or the movie in general. I actually liked the movie originally coming out but the more I thought about it the less I liked it. It did not hold up on rewatch.

There were some good ideas but the execution I found to be somewhat lacking. It's not the worst movie I've ever seen but it's not the best either. Both Ben and Luke are unreliable narrators. So we can't really trust any version of the story completely not even the last version.

[Carabas]

I don't think killing him in his sleep would have been the correct choice. I think the correct choice would have been talking to the guy.

One can reasonably assume that talking has already been exhausted as an option.

[SpiderClops]

I don't think killing him in his sleep would have been the correct choice. I think the correct choice would have been talking to the guy.



It's comments like this that get critics upset. Instead of discussing it and maybe seeing that the movie is flawed and maybe they might have a point. it's somehow thier fault for not liking parts of the movie or the movie in general. I actually liked the movie originally coming out but the more I thought about it the less I liked it. It did not hold up on rewatch.

There were some good ideas but the execution I found to be somewhat lacking. It's not the worst movie I've ever seen but it's not the best either. Both Ben and Luke are unreliable narrators. So we can't really trust any version of the story completely not even the last version.

Ah, the classic "Don't pretend it's perfect!" argument. You know, to people who NEVER said that it was.

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

Ah, the classic "Don't pretend it's perfect!" argument. You know, to people who NEVER said that it was.

It's not what you said that's bugging me it's the way you said it. The whole "It's arguments like these that Make me want me to take any Last Jedi criticisms form you guys seriously." It comes off as you're an idiot for thinking this and not worth my time. Maybe it's not what you meant but it can come off that way. All I did was my give my opinion on why I don't think the movie works all that well and why it's harder to believe Luke's second story. I feel he's an unreliable narrator at this point.

[SpiderClops]

It's not what you said that's bugging me it's the way you said it. The whole "It's arguments like these that Make me want me to take any Last Jedi criticisms form you guys seriously." It comes off as you're an idiot for thinking this and not worth my time. Maybe it's not what you meant but it can come off that way. All I did was my give my opinion on why I don't think the movie works all that well and why it's harder to believe Luke's second story. I feel he's an unreliable narrator at this point.

Idiot? No. But it feels like you guys are just looking for stuff to be mad about. You hate it, fine. Don't go looking for every single detail and try to prove why it's bad.

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

Idiot? No. But it feels like you guys are just looking for stuff to be mad about. You hate it, fine. Don't go looking for every single detail and try to prove why it's bad.

Believe it or not I don't hate the movie. Certain things bug me and I'm going to voice that. There are things I do in fact like about the movie. I actually liked Luke's force projection trick. It had good forshadowing and hints to it and was a good homage to Kenobi. I actually didn't mind the whole force bond thing.

[Gray Lensman]

Maybe not but I think we definitely have more reason to believe Ben's side of the story. I mean if we're keeping Score Kylo has been the more honest of the two. Luke kept important detail out the first time. Who's to say he's not doing it the second time? At this point it's basically a lot of he said she said.

My take is that it is how each one interprets the same event. Ren saw the lightsaber and interpreted it as an attack (how even that justifies killing everyone else there is beyond me though) and Luke sees it as a moment of fear induced weakness that he regrets (but he may not have had the chance to carry through, so regret may be all that he can have).

[thwhtGuardian]

My take is that it is how each one interprets the same event. Ren saw the lightsaber and interpreted it as an attack (how even that justifies killing everyone else there is beyond me though) and Luke sees it as a moment of fear induced weakness that he regrets (but he may not have had the chance to carry through, so regret may be all that he can have).

That he went on to kill everyone else just goes to show that Luke should have gone through with it, as Ben was obviously past gone and just looking for an excuse to break loose.

[Sacred Knight]

I wouldn't go as far as to say Luke should have gone through with it, because I believe he would have fallen down a dark path himself. What it does say though is that Luke wasn't exaggerating about Ben's process of seduction by Snoke to that point. It was as bad as he was making it out to be that had him even considering what he was in the first place. His reaction as it pertains to the destruction of the entire Academy shows that he was teetering on the edge even then and was already more dark than light. The fact he was even still welcome at the Academy having fallen as far as he had (and likely being a spy for Snoke), shows that Luke until that point was desperately trying to bring him back. He was still "human" enough emotionally to have that moment of being a scared boy that stilled Luke's hand, but what he did in the aftermath of the confrontation is demonstrable evidence that he was pretty damn far gone well before Luke pulled that saber out on him.

[ChrisIII]

The TFA vision seems to show a fully-suited Ren and his knights killing off the students, now that I think of it.


Also going by TFA's dialogue it's possible there were problems at home with Han & Leia....sorry to drag out "Bloodlines" again, but the book-which was advised by Johnson BTW-states that Kylo was unaware of his grandfather's identity, which is outed for the whole galaxy pretty much by a First Order mole senator. That possibly could've led to some tensions between the family (and also a potential opening for Snoke) which is why they gave him to Luke to "fix".

[Sacred Knight]

The interesting thing is that there seems to be two rites of dark passage for both grandfather and grandson. Anakin officially becomes Darth Vader when he kills Mace and joins Sidious. Ben officially becomes Kylo Ren after Luke's quasi-attack and the destruction of the Academy. Darth Vader falls beyond all hope (by conventional means at least, before Luke has his say otherwise decades later), after being mutilated at Obi-Wan's hand on Mustafar. Kylo Ren falls beyond all hope when he murders his own father.

[ZeroBG82]

My take is that it is how each one interprets the same event. Ren saw the lightsaber and interpreted it as an attack (how even that justifies killing everyone else there is beyond me though) and Luke sees it as a moment of fear induced weakness that he regrets (but he may not have had the chance to carry through, so regret may be all that he can have).

This. Ben absolutely believes his version, Luke absolutely believes his final version.

One of the repeating motifs of The Last Jedi is the conflict between reality and the stories people tell about us, or reality and the stories we tell about ourselves. Luke feels trapped by the story everybody else tells about him, the Legenedary Jedi Luke Skywalker. And that conflicts with his personal sense of monumental failure with Ben. But at least part of the reason he failed Ben has to do with falling in to the trap of believing that same story that everybody else tells about him.

How we define ourselves, by what metrics and against what perceptions of others, is a recurring development in the film. How others see us vs. how we see ourselves vs who we actually are. Both Ben and Luke choose to define themselves by what happened that night, but they tell very different versions of the same story. Luke's (final) version is likely the closest to truth. It is unvarnished, and doesn't rely on how Rey sees Luke or Ben to attempt to control her perception (as his earlier version, and Ben's version do), nor attempts to disguise his weakness and uncertainty. It is the gray area that Ben's version has made black and white.