Apocalypse vs Juggernaut

[Pendaran]

Why would it be way too broad? He has problems in this issue, he got tired fighting the X men /danger room in the next and Apocalypse restrained him after that in the next issue.

He went to sleep because he thought he was alone in nature surrounded by friendly animals like he was a Disney Princess and could rest for being tired. The minute he felt that was all bullcrap he immediately opened his eyes and started smashing through the mansion again, as though that was not actually an issue. That doesn't speak to really being all that tired.

The Hulk is literally supposed to be dying. That is the narrative, that sometimes he ignores the pain doesn't make the times he didn't irrelevant.

At the same time he's also supposed to be all jacked up for all the energy coming into him. The narrative had different directions it wanted to go in.

If anything the times he wasn't weak are the outliers, the times the writer forgot or had Hulk "struggle through the pain" considering the main thrust of the story is that the Hulk's indeed having issued enough to take help from Apocalypse and the ilk

Or the writer's intent was that sometimes the Hulk had problems, and sometimes not.

At that, the Hulk accepted help from Apocalypse to shut up the voice of his father he was hallucinating due to the shrapnel in his head/the Hulk being basically insane (or possibly it was actually his father's ghost and all of those other things were rationalizations) considering that even after Apocalypse supposedly removed it, he was still seeing his father right until the helmet went on.

[The Arbiter]

Anyone know the issue #s for the whole "Hulk sleeping like a Disney Princess" thing? Cause I would love to see that :P

[Pendaran]

But of course they can. Like just as a basic thing attempting to avoid or block the blows. The first time he didn't even think Thor's axe could hurt him even if he managed a hit!


Thats like Batman underestimating Bronze Tiger and later realising he can actually beat him and taking measures the second time round

Again, that is not how durability works and the scan doesn't change that. Unless you are arguing that Apocalypse can significantly and hugely raise and lower his durability depending on how much he feels he needs to resist something hurting him as part of his actual powers, that makes no sense to compare to. And if you are arguing that.. it doesn't seem like his powers work that way barring an example?

It is almost the same chop to almost the same place (except that modern Thor attacks him from behind no less). One goes wayyyyy deeper than the other. That's just.. the thing that happened.

[Pendaran]

Anyone know the issue #s for the whole "Hulk sleeping like a Disney Princess" thing? Cause I would love to see that :P

Incredible Hulk 455

[Beadle]

Also leave the op alone, he just wants punch out fights

I have a theory that he’s running some sort of group psychological study and we’re just his laboratory rats.

1. He knows that we get frustrated by the same cycle being repeated every time.
2. He doesn’t directly interfere with the experiment (*cough*thread*cough*) himself and just lets it run it’s course.
3. He keeps the experiment conditions identical (no BFR, no TP) to ensure the results are comparable.
4. He keeps one parameter constant (Apocalypse) and replaces the other (Despero, Juggernaut, Red Hulk...).

That’s an experiment. That’s science, bruh.

[The Arbiter]

Again, that is not how durability works and the scan doesn't change that. Unless you are arguing that Apocalypse can significantly and hugely raise and lower his durability depending on how much he feels he needs to resist something hurting him as part of his actual powers, that makes no sense to compare to. And if you are arguing that.. it doesn't seem like his powers work that way barring an example?

It is almost the same chop to almost the same place (except that modern Thor attacks him from behind no less). One goes wayyyyy deeper than the other. That's just.. the thing that happened.

Again, the encounter with Modern Thor was an older Apoc wearing a totally different set of armor for what that's worth. *shrugs*

Incredible Hulk 455

Thanks. ^_^

[Pendaran]

Related note, the Hulk was "tired" because they ontop of everything flooded the danger room with sleeping gas after lulling him into a false sense of security. And yet the moment he thinks everything is garbage, he shrugs it right off.

This does not speak to "yeah, he was constantly ruined."

Sometimes he had problems that actually screwed with him. Sometimes he did not. The degree to which they manifested varied, and that too was part of the point, that his condition hit him at unexpected and thus narratively convenient times. If they weren't manifesting in a given moment, it's a reach to say they were anyway.

This is even a case in point. He goes from collapsing in front of Wolverine to rampaging through the X-mansion such that even with sleeping gas and trickery, he shrugs that crap off once he decides it is crap.

[Pendaran]

So, I'm going to note something, if in response to "well I could see someone saying that these shows are aberrations to Apocalypse's career" the majority of the replies boil down to "nope! we're going to keep hyperfocusing on trying to say these two showings are instead showing something other than they show", it makes it seem like there is no actual argument for these showings being aberrations to Apocalypse's career, because all that can be managed is to keep trying to reach for ways to pick at these two showings.

[theoneandonly]

I have a theory that he’s running some sort of group psychological study and we’re just his laboratory rats.

1. He knows that we get frustrated by the same cycle being repeated every time.
2. He doesn’t directly interfere with the experiment (*cough*thread*cough*) himself and just lets it run it’s course.
3. He keeps the experiment conditions identical (no BFR, no TP) to ensure the results are comparable.
4. He keeps one parameter constant (Apocalypse) and replaces the other (Despero, Juggernaut, Red Hulk...).

That’s an experiment. That’s science, bruh.

so you are saying he is a scientist masquerading as a colonel? methinks he is culling the herd and is positing a test for the survival of fittest and hence his preference for Apocalypse. once he has identified the strongest fighters he is going to have a street fighter tournament. these are the preliminary bouts.

[The Dork Knight]

Again, that is not how durability works and the scan doesn't change that. Unless you are arguing that Apocalypse can significantly and hugely raise and lower his durability depending on how much he feels he needs to resist something hurting him as part of his actual powers, that makes no sense to compare to. And if you are arguing that.. it doesn't seem like his powers work that way barring an example?

It is almost the same chop to almost the same place (except that modern Thor attacks him from behind no less). One goes wayyyyy deeper than the other. That's just.. the thing that happened.

Ehh I'm sorry but of course durability works better when you're prepared for it. A pro boxer not defending himself or bracing for the impact is more likely to be KOd than someone in an active fight situation bracing for impact. Like a football player actually anticipating a tackle as opposed to a dude looking the other way getting slammed down. They both have similar durability, just difference in preparation and expectations. In the second case Apocalypse was in an ongoing fight and even started to turn as Thor came up with his smart as line and axe

Or to use a more comic book ey example. Batman should have crumpled the second time he got hit by BT as well. Why didn't he?

[moonknight11]

Discussing three feats - 10 pages.

I imagine if we discuss the rest of Apocalypses showings we're gonna be a bigger thread than downtown khazan.

[The Arbiter]

So, I'm going to note something, if in response to "well I could see someone saying that these shows are aberrations to Apocalypse's career" the majority of the replies boil down to "nope! we're going to keep hyperfocusing on trying to say these two showings are instead showing something other than they show", it makes it seem like there is no actual argument for these showings being aberrations to Apocalypse's career, because all that can be managed is to keep trying to reach for ways to pick at these two showings.

For me, I'm sticking to my stuff personally because I am no huge Apocalypse history dude. I'm not confident with everything.

I know alt timeline versions of the guy have been vaporized or torn in half by Black Bolt and Magneto. I know main timeline Apoc was incapable of restricting Lokis movements to prevent escape, despite having him locked up in a giant arm claw/clamp. I know he got pounded on by the x men once pretty fierce but iirc he had no armor and was sick or some such.

Problem is, this is mostly just gleamed knowledge through the years. I don't have even 1/4 of his comics.

[The Arbiter]

And with that, I am seriously dipping for the night. 4 am Denny's breakfast calls.

[Pendaran]

For me, I'm sticking to my stuff personally because I am no huge Apocalypse history dude. I'm not confident with everything.

I know alt timeline versions of the guy have been vaporized or torn in half by Black Bolt and Magneto. I know main timeline Apoc was incapable of restricting Lokis movements to prevent escape, despite having him locked up in a giant arm claw/clamp. I know he got pounded on by the x men once pretty fierce but iirc he had no armor and was sick or some such.

Problem is, this is mostly just gleamed knowledge through the years. I don't have even 1/4 of his comics.

The problem of "sticking to your stuff" is that these showings don't bear out the attempted analysis.

Even invoking "Apocalypse failed to keep Loki from getting away from him" would be something!

[Pendaran]

Ehh I'm sorry but of course durability works better when you're prepared for it. A pro boxer not defending himself or bracing for the impact is more likely to be KOd than someone in an active fight situation bracing for impact. Like a football player actually anticipating a tackle as opposed to a dude looking the other way getting slammed down. They both have similar durability, just difference in preparation and expectations. In the second case Apocalypse was in an ongoing fight and even started to turn as Thor came up with his smart as line and axe

Or to use a more comic book ey example. Batman should have crumpled the second time he got hit by BT as well. Why didn't he?

It's an axe magically enchanted to cleave through him, as it were. You are comparing the Axe of Celestial Slaying +5 to fists. Unless Apocalypse really does have that raise/lower durability thing, there is only so much bracing you can do, to an axe. You're talking about bracing in fistfights, in comparison to being chopped with an axe.

And beyond that, there's a line between "works better" and "works so ridiculously better that one chop can cleave right down into him and drop him, while a similar chop gets so much less traction".

It's still a shot from behind that he can only have had so much awareness of happening/"bracing time", at that.

And ontop of everything else? The Thor that cleaved him so bad, was injured Thor. He chopped him real good at a handicap.

And setting all that aside? You are comparing bracing for punches, with that you can brace to be chopped, with an axe.