Apocalypse vs Juggernaut

[Pendaran]

I'm off to bed, so will respond at length to your points, scouts honor, but before I go, I will say I am worried a miscommunication has occurred.

I am not claiming Apocalypse is not class 100. I was claiming I didnt see any good feats of his that could make us say he can reliably overpower the Hulk or Juggernaut based on the one scene of him choking the dude.

At best that scene argues parity of strength to me, not a drastic advantage. At worst a guy like 70-80% of Hulk's stats could do that. 80% of Hulk being still waaaay stronger than say Thing or Cage. I was just worried that people would site that example of Apoc in an advantageous position as some sort of proof that he was well beyond Hulk in physicality.

A guy "70 to 80%" of the Hulk's stats would have ended in "Hulk grabs cable like he's trying to do, Hulk flings them off". Just off instead "off into the horizon".

A guy "70 to 80%" of the Hulk's stats could not have, by pulling on his own body cable, effect the Hulk enough with a choke that the Hulk is feeling it even after it ends, such that he's doubled over and Apoc is nattering on. There is no logic in that statement.

[The Arbiter]

Let me further elaborate at that, in the scan we see that during the choke hold of sorts, the Hulk is reaching at said hold. If Apoc was "significantly weaker" there, the Hulk would have only needed to 1) grab cable. 2) fling Apocalypse into the stratosphere, with him powerless to do anything about it. For some reason, this doesn't happen, as if the way you are trying to read into this showing does not remotely pan out as far as going beyond "Apocalypse overpowered the Hulk into a choke, then let him go."

Again, I'm arguing a "significantly weaker" real world dude could accomplish what he did to a much stronger real world dude. Trying to emphasis that the position matters. I don't believe I've claimed Apoc was some sort of weakling.

[The Arbiter]

A guy "70 to 80%" of the Hulk's stats would have ended in "Hulk grabs cable like he's trying to do, Hulk flings them off". Just off instead "off into the horizon".

A guy "70 to 80%" of the Hulk's stats could not have, by pulling on his own body cable, effect the Hulk enough with a choke that the Hulk is feeling it even after it ends, such that he's doubled over and Apoc is nattering on. There is no logic in that statement.

70% of Hulks stats would still be class 100 right? Probably? You don't think a class 100 cranking on the dudes neck would affect him?

[The Arbiter]

You seem to find it's worth mentioning for a qualifier anyway. During the subsequent headbutt to the face while looking right at each other, did Thor's boozery make that hurt more?

In regards to Thors total performance, yes I would say being drunk and sneak attacked and not having all his gear would affect the outcome, sure. The outcome of that fight being my point in regards Cthulhu's comment of how he "monstered all over him". My point had nothing to do with innate durability. Apoc is in the class 100 range.

I just don't feel that one scene with the choke is a great indicator as to him being able to reliably over power guys on Hulks level given the nature of the hold.

Edit: look what you've made me do. Bed time was 20 minutes ago lol. :P

[Pendaran]

Again, I'm arguing a "significantly weaker" real world dude could accomplish what he did to a much stronger real world dude. Trying to emphasis that the position matters. I don't believe I've claimed Apoc was some sort of weakling.

Yes, I'm noting that your analogy on the Hulk's scale of strength and durability is without meaning. Apocalypse used a cable off his own body to restrain the Hulk with a choke hold such that the Hulk reaching for it to grab wasn't getting him out of it, and such that afterwards, the Hulk doubled over, choking.

You seem to feel like you can treat these parts as if they exist in some vacuum of isolation from each other instead of them establishing a full context.

Apocalypse's hold of the Hulk was such that the Hulk felt it enough for pronounced physical reaction. Someone "70 to 80%" of the Hulk is not getting that kind of reaction. It speaks to the hold, being, you know, a parity strength effort or somewhere beyond it.

More to the point, considering what you note as Apocalypse's own not especially demonstrated huge strain? Someone "70 to 80%" of the Hulk's strength should be struggling vastly through that process. Not just dropping the dude and otherwise spending his time during it being all "dude, you should be gratified this is happening and stop struggling"

[Pendaran]

70% of Hulks stats would still be class 100 right? Probably? You don't think a class 100 cranking on the dudes neck would affect him?

I think you're using "class 100" like a cargo cult term in the way that requires us to explain "it's shorthand for an overall strength bracket, not a guarantee someone could affect someone else".

Because no, not in the way that showing depicted things it wouldn't. Not someone "70 to 80%" of the Hulk as far as everything from the strain this looks to be putting on Apocalypse, to the Hulk's reaction afterwards, to the Hulk not being able to get out of it.

[Pendaran]

In regards to Thors total performance, yes I would say being drunk and sneak attacked and not having all his gear would affect the outcome, sure. The outcome of that fight being my point in regards Cthulhu's comment of how he "monstered all over him". My point had nothing to do with innate durability. Apoc is in the class 100 range.

I just don't feel that one scene with the choke is a great indicator as to him being able to reliably over power guys on Hulks level given the nature of the hold.

Edit: look what you've made me do. Bed time was 20 minutes ago lol. :P

Your basis for discounting the scene requires ignoring that scene and making analogies that do not bear out.

And again, with Thor, did Thor being drunk mean the headbutt did more damage than it otherwise could have? If being drunk does not lower his durability, how so?

[theoneandonly]

it's one panel where Apocalypse had him at his mercy back when it was his heyday. D list villains have pulled off the same feat and almost killed him while they were at it.

[The Arbiter]

Your basis for discounting the scene requires ignoring that scene and making analogies that do not bear out.

And again, with Thor, did Thor being drunk mean the headbutt did more damage than it otherwise could have? If being drunk does not lower his durability, how so?

What's with the Thor stuff? Apoc can hurt Thor. He hurt him. I find no problem with that. Sober Thor would be injured by that same headbutt. Apoc is class 100. When did I argue anything pertaining to durability and not just the showing in general in regards Thor's performance?

Like sober Thor may have avoided the headbutt. Or been more cognizant of the approaching dude about to cheap shot him or whatever. That's my point.

Also, as a genuine question because I simply don't have the answer, wasn't the Hulk he choked out separated from Banner at that moment? Wasn't that particular version of Hulk incapable of scaling strength with anger or some nonsense?

[The Dork Knight]

In Thor's own words, Apoc started that fight with a cheap shot from behind. Thor was also quite drunk and was woefully under armed and outfitted in general. I don't believe he had his belt of strength or what not. It was actually Apoc that said something along the lines of "I cant believe papa Odin let's you out into the world with basically nothing.

Actually according to narration his drunken state probably helped him

[Pendaran]

it's one panel where Apocalypse had him at his mercy back when it was his heyday. D list villains have pulled off the same feat and almost killed him while they were at it.

You just posted a scan where Hulk responded by grabbing the cable and ripping it apart.

D list villains have pulled off the same feat and almost killed him while they were at it.

This is not an actual argument. This is an anti argument. The obscurity or lack of power of a villain has nothing to do with how powerful a given thing they do is.

[The Arbiter]

You just posted a scan where Hulk responded by grabbing the cable and ripping it apart.
.

After an extended struggle where he was gasping and only overcame it because of a rage boost.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Post the snake choke-out next Arby.

[Pendaran]

What's with the Thor stuff? Apoc can hurt Thor. He hurt him. I find no problem with that. Sober Thor would be injured by that same headbutt. Apoc is class 100. When did I argue anything pertaining to durability and not just the showing in general in regards Thor's performance?

Like sober Thor may have avoided the headbutt. Or been more cognizant of the approaching dude about to cheap shot him or whatever. That's my point.

Also, as a genuine question because I simply don't have the answer, wasn't the Hulk he choked out separated from Banner at that moment? Wasn't that particular version of Hulk incapable of scaling strength with anger or some nonsense?

The Thor stuff is that you're putting qualifiers on it to discount the showing that don't make sense or bear out with regards how much his being drunk weighed on it.

And no, Hulk could still get madder and stronger.

[The Arbiter]

Actually according to narration his drunken state probably helped him

The narration of that comic was so strange though. You think limber neck is really the difference between hurt lip and "skull separated from spine"? Later on the narrator claims shockwaves traveled for miles despite no crater, visible shockwave or nearby raindrops, mud etc being affected by said shockwaves.