Apocalypse vs Juggernaut

[Beadle]

You have to admit, Hipsters are the most easily swayed by things "nobody's every heard of". Cthulhu, is certainly that.

Well ... not anymore.

Wait, I've made hypocrites out of Hipsters. GENIUS.

Hipstocrites. Nice.

I think doctors make the hipstocritic oath, don’t they?

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Hipstocrites. Nice.

I think doctors make the hipstocritic oath, don’t they?

Anymore ? Yes.

"Thou shalt not harm, unless they can't afford it."

[Len Ikari145]

You have to admit, Hipsters are the most easily swayed by things "nobody's every heard of". Cthulhu, is certainly that.

Well ... not anymore.

Wait, I've made hypocrites out of Hipsters. GENIUS.

Stop accrediting others' moralistic failings as your handiwork, you lethargic morsel! The only thing you're responsible for is the collective failure of the CW DC Universe!

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Stop accrediting others' moralistic failings as your handiwork, you lethargic morsel! The only thing you're responsible for is the collective failure of the CW DC Universe!

Pff. I haven't touched CW DC, they've ruined themselves on their own.

[The Arbiter]

That's a bit downplaying the scene to the point of overexaggeration. Apocalypse wasn't "pleading" or something that otherwise implies he was at some disadvantage. He was certainly telling the Hulk to stop struggling and had him overpowered with via using own body cables as handheld ropes of sorts (one around his neck and the other one the Hulk was trying to.. bite off? for some reason) to the point that when he let the Hulk go, the Hulk's immediate reaction was to clutch at himself and choke for a panel while Apocalypse self importantly monologues.

It's also pretty much a scene of physical grappling, it's difficult to try and read into it "clearly Apocalypse did some whole complex thing to set up the Hulk that way via intricate ninja ambushes and machine lattices we just don't see." It's just the two of them in the desert outside it. The previous issue was Apocalypse teleporting the Hulk to his base. The most you can note is "then they moved to the desert."

https://imgur.com/a/roGy9jE

https://imgur.com/a/YgFJuyn

Pleading was the wrong choice of words. Been a while since I've seen that panel. All I knew is that he was hoping for dialogue, not confrontation. My bad.

So just how much stronger than Hulk do you feel normal sized Apoc is? Based on this scene. Twice as strong? I mean it's a direct physical grapple in your mind, and he pretty casually wrecks Hulk in it. Three times?

[Pendaran]

Pleading was the wrong choice of words. Been a while since I've seen that panel. All I knew is that he was hoping for dialogue, not confrontation. My bad.

So just how much stronger than Hulk do you feel normal sized Apoc is? Based on this scene. Twice as strong? I mean it's a direct physical grapple in your mind, and he pretty casually wrecks Hulk in it. Three times?

He wouldn't need to be more than twice as strong to get away with that crap.

[The Arbiter]

He wouldn't need to be more than twice as strong to get away with that crap.

You find that more believable than him having just managed to weasel his way into an advantageous position with the various abilities he has that could help accomplish that?

Basically why is you saying "he muscled his way into that position off panel" more valid than me saying "he used his various other abilities like stretching etc to get into that position off panel"?

Because again, strictly speaking, a much weaker guy could make a much stronger guy cough and become immobilized if they had tightly wrapped chains around their throat and in their mouth and were cranking them from behind.

Other feats that suggest Apoc is twice as strong as Hulk while I'm at it?

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

If it helps, Apoc's presentation was such that he monstered over a young Thor to the point where the guy needed to make a cursed Celestial-killing Axe.

And tends to generally trounce Colossus IIRC.

[The Arbiter]

If it helps, Apoc's presentation was such that he monstered over a young Thor to the point where the guy needed to make a cursed Celestial-killing Axe.

And tends to generally trounce Colossus IIRC.

In Thor's own words, Apoc started that fight with a cheap shot from behind. Thor was also quite drunk and was woefully under armed and outfitted in general. I don't believe he had his belt of strength or what not. It was actually Apoc that said something along the lines of "I cant believe papa Odin let's you out into the world with basically nothing.

In a different setting where Thor isn't drunk etc, I believe they had a brief fight where he essentially cut Apoc to pieces all while blocking his punches fairly easily. I will admit I don't know much about that second fight except it happened. Seems to involve Unworthy Thor, not Young Thor.

[Pendaran]

Ah ha. You were more trying the "don't you see how this logically means you think this unreasonable thing" bit of rhetoric. My bad, I misread you there.

Okay then it boils down to this: Unless Apocalypse has strength either on par to somewhere beyond the Hulk in that moment, the only thing "weaseling into that position" would do is the Hulk just throwing him off instead of crying out to be let go, then clutching at himself and choking after that happened. Given the sheer depth of the Hulk's strength, they would at bare screaming minimum have to be comparable for that even to matter.

Because again, strictly speaking, a much weaker guy could make a much stronger guy cough and become immobilized if they had tightly wrapped chains around their throat and in their mouth and were cranking them from behind.

Let me turn this around on you then since this is the standard you invoke. How much weaker? Do you figure the Thing could pull that off? Luke Cage?

Also from the scan, Apocalypse is only pulling on the one around the Hulk's neck, the cable in his mouth is just.. a cable from Apocalypse's body the Hulk is biting at. Apocalypse is not leveraging any effort on it.

The Hulk actually clutched at himself while doubling over and coughing. This requires that the strength involved in choking him was enough for him to.. respond by doubling over and coughing. He had to actually be feeling it to the point of that reaction. You are seriously claiming someone "much weaker" than the Hulk could get that result from choking him.

For this to make sense logically, you have just argued the Hulk's neck is vastly less durable than the rest of his body, that he has some specific "choked from behind" weakpoint at that.

Let me try this, how much does the Hulk's durability go down by if someone chokes him from the back instead of the front? How far down the totem pole could we go before someone couldn't get the same result.

Yes, I find what I said a whole lot more plausible than "the Hulk's neck durability is super below the rest of his body, especially if you can get behind him".

How strong are you figuring someone would have to be to get a physical reaction like that from choking the Hulk? Your current answer is "significantly weaker". How much weaker?

Other feats that suggest Apoc is twice as strong as Hulk while I'm at it?

Zilch

But if you're trying to dupe my posting mannerisms, the other thing you know I'd probably note is "this character barely exists with regards gauging these showings by".

Also that I said "he wouldn't need to be more than twice as strong to do that", as if noting a maximum.

[Pendaran]

In Thor's own words, Apoc started that fight with a cheap shot from behind. Thor was also quite drunk and was woefully under armed and outfitted in general. I don't believe he had his belt of strength or what not. It was actually Apoc that said something along the lines of "I cant believe papa Odin let's you out into the world with basically nothing.

In a different setting where Thor isn't drunk etc, I believe they had a brief fight where he essentially cut Apoc to pieces all while blocking his punches fairly easily. I will admit I don't know much about that second fight except it happened. Seems to involve Unworthy Thor, not Young Thor.

How much does being drunk reduce Thor's durability, do you figure?

[The Arbiter]

I'm off to bed, so will respond at length to your points, scouts honor, but before I go, I will say I am worried a miscommunication has occurred.

I am not claiming Apocalypse is not class 100. I was claiming I didnt see any good feats of his that could make us say he can reliably overpower the Hulk or Juggernaut based on the one scene of him choking the dude.

At best that scene argues parity of strength to me, not a drastic advantage. At worst a guy like 70-80% of Hulk's stats could do that. 80% of Hulk being still waaaay stronger than say Thing or Cage. I was just worried that people would site that example of Apoc in an advantageous position as some sort of proof that he was well beyond Hulk in physicality.

[The Arbiter]

How much does being drunk reduce Thor's durability, do you figure?

Not at all.

[Pendaran]

Let me further elaborate at that, in the scan we see that during the choke hold of sorts, the Hulk is reaching at said hold. If Apoc was "significantly weaker" there, the Hulk would have only needed to 1) grab cable. 2) fling Apocalypse into the stratosphere, with him powerless to do anything about it. For some reason, this doesn't happen, as if the way you are trying to read into this showing does not remotely pan out as far as going beyond "Apocalypse overpowered the Hulk into a choke, then let him go."

[Pendaran]

Not at all.

You seem to find it's worth mentioning for a qualifier anyway. During the subsequent headbutt to the face while looking right at each other, did Thor's boozery make that hurt more?