Apocalypse vs Juggernaut

[Pendaran]

What?

Anyways, I remain unconvinced that because the armor was damaged from the punch, the punch didn't happen as an argument.

You can certainly think that's what the argument is. And that his armor, i.e. the thing that manifests his power being damaged by hitting something nevertheless means that thing was basically irrelevant to blunting the shot from him, but again, that doesn't actually work out. Pieces of what his power shows up as came off because he hit something. If you think that means he regardless totally hit it super good and blocking it shows Thor was doing much better than otherwise... ookay.

[The Dork Knight]

Thank you. Considering just how tough Exitar is in comparison to Apoc...

Seems like it one shots celestial stuff. Except inexplicably when unworthy Thor fought Apoc

Exitar is entirely celestial armour, Apocalypse is skin and celestial armour over that

[The Arbiter]

I know you guys are actually like this is some big gotcha post, but it's mostly just going back on yourselves.

The second Apoc fight was invoked as "Older Thor did so much better". The second Apoc fight being the one where he needed well more hits to drop Apocalypse.

You haven't actually changed this.

Have we moved on from that then? Are we now on "fine, Older Thor didn't do better on Apocalypse, but instead he did this!"

Eh, he did better in the sense that he pretty casually manhandled the guy without taking any of his own damage. Blocking blows that would have probably sent young Thor flying. His offense notwithstanding, he came out of that fight much more healthy is my point for "better".

[Pendaran]

This is the first time Apocalypse faced him with that axe, the time before that his axe did nothing at all, in fact Poccy specifically remarks that (in the instance he got one Shotted) that even if he hit him it wouldn't matter because of his armour. Plus he believed the fight was pretty much over. So a combination of surprise and not knowing

The fight in the present he was more experienced and knew what to expect

None of those things could possibly make Apocalypse more durable, is the problem, unless his durability works somewhat like Gladiator's.

Which.. I am fairly sure it does not.

[moonknight11]

I guess you could wave away the disparity in jarnbjorns performance against Apoc and exitar by noting that only Apocs armor is celestial. The rest of him is not so it's not affected by the celestial kryptonite or whatever. Exitar is all celestial so he's affected way more.

Edit; I see dork Knight blitzed me lol

[The Arbiter]

None of those things could possibly make Apocalypse more durable, is the problem, unless his durability works somewhat like Gladiator's.

Which.. I am fairly sure it does not.

I may need clarification from wiser minds here, but that future Apoc wasn't like literally the same time period as the one that fought young Thor just in the future right? Isn't he that Apoc after a few thousand years? His armor looks different and such.

[Pendaran]

Eh, he did better in the sense that he pretty casually manhandled the guy without taking any of his own damage. Blocking blows that woukd have probably sent young Thor flying. His offense notwithstanding, he came out of that fight much more healthy is my point for "better".

It is baffling that you consider hitting Thor from behind to be of importance but Thor hitting Apocalypse from behind, with an axe designed to kill him, is of no weight by comparison. Apocalypse hitting that axe sent pieces of him flaking off, which similarly you feel is of no meaning, which is again interesting.

Also "his offense notwithstanding", you can say that, but in saying that you are for serious handwaving away "how hard he hit the guy" as something worth considering when saying who did better.

[moonknight11]

Also leave the op alone, he just wants punch out fights

[Pendaran]

Okay. I'll reiterate because it is being lost in the thread.

Thing that is fine "these showings are better than anything else Apocalypse has done". That's an actual argument.

Non argument: "These showings don't count because of a bunch of non applicable or outright contradictory qualifiers."

For some reason, instead of at all trying the first thing, there is this effort to bend over backwards to keep the second thing going.

[The Arbiter]

It is baffling that you consider hitting Thor from behind to be of importance but Thor hitting Apocalypse from behind, with an axe designed to kill him, is of no weight by comparison. Apocalypse hitting that axe sent pieces of him flaking off, which similarly you feel is of no meaning, which is again interesting.

Also "his offense notwithstanding", you can say that, but in saying that you are for serious handwaving away "how hard he hit the guy" as something worth considering when saying who did better.

I'm coming around based on what other people are saying in regards Apocs meaty portions under the armor and blah blah.

So are we to ignore the Gorr implications that current Thor is a tougher dude than young?

[moonknight11]

Okay. I'll reiterate because it is being lost in the thread.

Thing that is fine "these showings are better than anything else Apocalypse has done". That's an actual argument.

Non argument: "These showings don't count because of a bunch of non applicable or outright contradictory qualifiers."

For some reason, instead of at all trying the first thing, there is this effort to bend over backwards to keep the second thing going.

I agree. There's a lot of waffling about how Apoc did against thor and young Thor but what really matters are apocalypses other feats.

This thread has little mention beyond just two feats.

[The Dork Knight]

He did various salutary things in that period and had prolonged stretches where he didn't wince or collapse or the like or evidence impairment. Unless he's actually showing weakness in a given moment, that is wayyy too broad an attempt to disqualify things. He sometimes had those issues, and other times he didn't.

Why would it be way too broad? He has problems in this issue, he got tired fighting the X men /danger room in the next and Apocalypse restrained him after that in the next issue.

If he's having problems in the issues leading up to it, and in general having problems over this period why would that at the very least not add asterisks to any showing from this period? The Hulk is literally supposed to be dying. That is the narrative, that sometimes he ignores the pain doesn't make the times he didn't irrelevant. If anything the times he wasn't weak are the outliers, the times the writer forgot or had Hulk "struggle through the pain" considering the main thrust of the story is that the Hulk's indeed having issues enough to take help from Apocalypse and the ilk

[The Arbiter]

Okay. I'll reiterate because it is being lost in the thread.

Thing that is fine "these showings are better than anything else Apocalypse has done". That's an actual argument.

Non argument: "These showings don't count because of a bunch of non applicable or outright contradictory qualifiers."

For some reason, instead of at all trying the first thing, there is this effort to bend over backwards to keep the second thing going.

It's not been lost. I suppose I (can't speak for Dork, just myself) am not certain these qualifiers are really all that terrible as you are suggesting.

Working them out and trying to convince each other is the forum. I am not immune to having my mind changed. It's been changed plenty hearabouts

[The Arbiter]

I agree. There's a lot of waffling about how Apoc did against thor and young Thor but what really matters are apocalypses other feats.

This thread has little mention beyond just two feats.

Hey. We are working it out. Doing a thing here. Shoo now, our feng shui is reaching a critical moment ;p

And no. I will not leave the OP alone. Grrr...

[The Dork Knight]

None of those things could possibly make Apocalypse more durable, is the problem, unless his durability works somewhat like Gladiator's.

Which.. I am fairly sure it does not.

But of course they can. Like just as a basic thing attempting to avoid or block the blows. The first time he didn't even think Thor's axe could hurt him even if he managed a hit!



Thats like Batman underestimating Bronze Tiger and later realising he can actually beat him and taking measures the second time round