Apocalypse vs Juggernaut

[Pendaran]

Discussing three feats - 10 pages.

I imagine if we discuss the rest of Apocalypses showings we're gonna be a bigger thread than downtown khazan.

I would frankly not really have the same issues if they were.

[theoneandonly]

ah but Apocalypse bracing himself would mean he will shift all his mass to the point where the axe cleaves him so that it can't penetrate to vital parts or some such nonsense.

[Pendaran]

Okay, so, for instance, I will try and help people get started on other showings, because I am nothing if not a helpful soul:

The big showing people usually like to trot out when talking up Apocalypse is him vs the Inhumans and X-factor on the moon.

However /that/ is actually a showing with huge qualifiers:

1) Black Bolt and his voice were actually worth a crap at this time and Cyclops standing beside him when he's using them should mean Cyclops and like, everyone, are vapour. Especially "hitting him with everything he's got". Everyone should be dead. At the very least Cyclops should be completely dead, and X-factor, and the Inhumans, and...

So that is a looooot of jobbing.

2) Apocalypse had been draining off energy from baby Nathan Summers. He was resisting, but dude was still doing it. That was not any kind of taken at his own thing Apocalypse.


Next, Loki!

Apocalypse wanted to capture Loki, and despite everything from minion sacrifice play to Celestial machinery, Loki totally got away. This is a huge amount of egg, on Apocalypse's face.

(You can argue that except for that one bit where Loki managed to worm out of an Apocalypse hand transformed to pincers grab that had nothing to do with strength levels, but then again, Loki did get out of that grab, so... I suppose to be fair to Apocalypse he did otherwise smash Loki out of the sky and onto his ass by ramming into him as a giant tiki head version of himself, but, still, Loki got out from that grab)

[The Dork Knight]

At that, the Hulk accepted help from Apocalypse to shut up the voice of his father he was hallucinating due to the shrapnel in his head/the Hulk being basically insane (or possibly it was actually his father's ghost and all of those other things were rationalizations) considering that even after Apocalypse supposedly removed it, he was still seeing his father right until the helmet went on.

I mean leaving aside everything else just this indicates Hulk was not in peak shape, be it physically or mentally

I don't get why you have to be so hard on the Hulk all the time. Other people remark he's not at his best, just like for instance Cap vs Daredevil which you're willing to accept, but not for Hulk

OK even if we go with "he's stronger as well", again that whole period merely indicates its not "standard Hulk" and hence an unusable showing for Hulk on an average.

There are several instances of Hulk being weakened during this period. And there are several not, as well but why should they then be used as indicative of anything for the Hulk? Shouldn't the whole time period be considered "unusable" for the standard hulk

[moonknight11]

Ok finally we get some more feats. Thanks pen.

With all those qualifiers they don't seem in leaugue with owning hulk and young Thor.

Apocalypse is usually an x men villain right? Has he ever run into and owned the x bricks? Like how in the cartoon he wrecked rogue and ****. Has he stomped Colossus?

Juggernaut has.

[The Dork Knight]

It's an axe magically enchanted to cleave through him, as it were. You are comparing the Axe of Celestial Slaying +5 to fists. Unless Apocalypse really does have that raise/lower durability thing, there is only so much bracing you can do, to an axe. You're talking about bracing in fistfights, in comparison to being chopped with an axe.

And beyond that, there's a line between "works better" and "works so ridiculously better that one chop can cleave right down into him and drop him, while a similar chop gets so much less traction".

It's still a shot from behind that he can only have had so much awareness of happening/"bracing time", at that.

And ontop of everything else? The Thor that cleaved him so bad, was injured Thor. He chopped him real good at a handicap.

And setting all that aside? You are comparing bracing for punches, with that you can brace to be chopped, with an axe.

Getting chopped with an axe while he's wearing a "shell" that saves his insides from direct impact, as he talks about how he is more than just his armour.

I don't see how it's "ridiculously better". It took Thor what? 3 chops instead of 1? And Apocalypse was on his knees with one, and laid out on his back with multiple chops.

I don't really see the inconsistency beyond Thor faring better against Apocalypse's blows

[Pendaran]

I mean leaving aside everything else just this indicates Hulk was not in peak shape, be it physically or mentally

I don't get why you have to be so hard on the Hulk all the time. Other people remark he's not at his best, just like for instance Cap vs Daredevil which you're willing to accept, but not for Hulk

OK even if we go with "he's stronger as well", again that whole period merely indicates its not "standard Hulk" and hence an unusable showing for Hulk on an average.

There are several instances of Hulk being weakened during this period. And there are several not, as well but why should they then be used as indicative of anything for the Hulk? Shouldn't the whole time period be considered "unusable" for the standard hulk

I feel like when I'm noting how a supposedly impaired Hulk could shrug off being tricked and gassed the moment he felt everything was bullcrap and having to otherwise point out "he's done up people choking out his neck from behind even when impaired on several levels" as far as a scan being posted without the thing that happened immediately after that I'm not being particularly hard on the character.

The idea of Hulk not being in peak shape as some constant thing does not bear out with that run of comics when he did impressive things just fine sometimes, and other times did not. The variability of his condition was a plot point.

There are several instances of Hulk being weakened during this period. And there are several not, as well but why should they then be used as indicative of anything for the Hulk? Shouldn't the whole time period be considered "unusable" for the standard hulk

For the very simple note of that if he's not showing weakness, he's not.. showing weakness. The instances of the Hulk being weakened show the Hulk operating when weakened. The several that are not show the Hulk operating when not weakened. Those are just the basic details of the situations you yourself are saying. When his condition is variable, the situations where he's weaker don't negate the ones where he isn't.

OK even if we go with "he's stronger as well", again that whole period merely indicates its not "standard Hulk" and hence an unusable showing for Hulk on an average.

Or it's a note that there's enough going on that unless the Hulk is explicitly shown as having a moment of weakness in some fashion, saying he's having one anyway doesn't track.

[Pendaran]

Ok finally we get some more feats. Thanks pen.

With all those qualifiers they don't seem in leaugue with owning hulk and young Thor.

Apocalypse is usually an x men villain right? Has he ever run into and owned the x bricks? Like how in the cartoon he wrecked rogue and ****. Has he stomped Colossus?

Juggernaut has.

He actually kinda one shot Colossus with an energy blast despite being all screwed up by channeling some energy from one of his bases to temp restore himself, so I suppose he has that.

[Pendaran]

Getting chopped with an axe while he's wearing a "shell" that saves his insides from direct impact, as he talks about how he is more than just his armour.

I don't see how it's "ridiculously better". It took Thor what? 3 chops instead of 1? And Apocalypse was on his knees with one, and laid out on his back with multiple chops.

I don't really see the inconsistency beyond Thor faring better against Apocalypse's blows

When Apocalypse can still keep fighting after chop #1, whereas the Young Thor chop drops him right down, it is ridiculously better by definition. When Young Thor chop cleaves deeply into him and Modern Thor chop does.. not, despite similar locale, and the various other notes, it's ridiculously better by definition, especially when to say otherwise required talking about being able to brace, for being chopped, by an axe. When Young Thor did his thing despite being cut into and Modern Thor had no injuries at all unless I missed something, it's ridiculously better by definition.

The shell saving his insides from direct impact routine makes it even worse, because it means Young Thor cleaved right through the shell and into those insides despite him being "more than his armor" in one go. Modern Thor, nowhere as good.

[Pendaran]

With the Colossus thing noted, you could argue though that the Colossus incident is not a pure showing, because it's difficult to say how much of that was Apocalypse and how much of that was energy from the Celestial tech, but then again he makes clear he was using the energy transfer to restore himself for a little while...

He's channeling the stored energies of his base. They restore him, but they aren't precisely his energies, if you follow me.

[theoneandonly]

does the death seed being his source of power turn him into a herald of celestials and give him equal potential to a Phoenix host or is it a exaggeration?

[Pendaran]

Really the issue of Apocalypse is this: A significant portion of his showings are him stealing other people's/machines energies, or end up with him being very wierdly weakness exploited, or are him operating at some "reduced condition" or whatever.

You can certainly note that in his early X-factor showings he is a bit crap, but then again excuses for them started rolling out (not quite Starlin Thanos rectons bad, but what is?)

Then again he also fought the High Evolutionary on even terms in those days-ish. Which, that's not small. But you could argue for it being well out of place.

Then again I thiiiink Ikaris gave him a decent fight? And Ikaris, while decent, is only so decent. (though I also recall Ikaris getting straight up skewered by him)

edit: Ikaris gave him a not terrible solo fight that he took the worst of. He managed to keep fighting despite a giant punch from a huge fist, then knocked Apoc back a bit with a punch or at least Apocalypse didn't ignore it like nothing, then he got grabbed and impaled, then he blew a hole in the ship that sucked them both out into space in order to make the fight stop (he was blatantly losing at that point), whereupon Apocalypse laughed and flew away, and Ikaris crashed down to Earth. Which, hey, surviving involuntary re-entry, being impaled, crashing into the ocean, not bad Ikaris, you're tougher than I thought. Apocalypse did also shapeshift to avoid his eyebeams, for what that's worth.

So... Ikaris didn't win or anything, but he didn't immediately fold either. Admittedly the fight wasn't all that long and Ikaris was going to otherwise die, but still, he kept going through some punishment and got that one hit in.

[Pendaran]

does the death seed being his source of power turn him into a herald of celestials and give him equal potential to a Phoenix host or is it a exaggeration?

Even if it did, that's not really him off his own steam.

[moonknight11]

How strong is Ikaris usually? Because Apoc kicking his ass sounds like a solid feat. I haven't read much eternals buy ikaris seems to be the main Thor like (Thor is to asgard what ikaris is to eternals) dude narrative wise.

[Pendaran]

How strong is Ikaris usually? Because Apoc kicking his ass sounds like a solid feat. I haven't read much eternals buy ikaris seems to be the main Thor like (Thor is to asgard what ikaris is to eternals) dude narrative wise.

He's.. eh. I wouldn't call him a peer of Thor.

Some of that is my hate of the last Eternals series talking I give you.

He's.. Wonder man.. ish? Traditional Wonder Man. In terms of overall effectiveness. Which doesn't suck mind you.

I've seen people argue he's more powerful than that. I just... ehhhh...

edit: like there are bits where if you take them seriously he's managed to at least get a reaction from the Surfer with his eyebeams, that kind of thing. But I would argue stuff like a punch from the Forgotten One stunning him for a moment is more his Wonder Man-ish wheelhouse. He doesn't suck and all, he's held up collapsing arenas, he's had successful eyebeam contests with Blastaar, he aforementioned survived reentry from space and crashing into the ocean despite having just been skewered, he's lifted up crashing space shuttles, etc. etc. etc.