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  1. #1
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Default Pulp Heroes & Analogues in DC.

    I've always been a fan of the old school pulp heroes like Green Hornet, Shadow, Phantom, Zorro, etc. And I find it rather sad that these classic characters aren't under DC's umbrella (they come from a similar era, one grew directly from the other, etc). Every time DC announces a book like Doc Savage or The Spirit, I get excited....only to have those books see questionable sales, get cancelled, and the licensing rights revert to another company like IDW or BOOM! or whoever. Even original characters inspired by the pulps (like The Others from Johns' Aquaman run) rarely (if ever) find traction.

    And those companies usually do just fine with the established pulp heroes. But come on, who wouldn't like to see these old school characters interacting with the DCU on a regular basis? It's great when we get the occasional mini, like Shadow-Batman, but those are pretty few and far between.

    So since DC won't license the characters long-term and can't buy the rights........who should/could fill those roles?

    Who could be the Green Hornet of DC? The Shadow? Etc etc.

    The recent Plastic Man mini has me thinking that setting Plas up as the "hero permanently undercover as a villain" might have some traction, and though Plas isn't a fedora wearing vigilante with a "ethnic" sidekick, I think he's actually a interesting fit for the model.

    I don't think this topic will generate enough interest to last as a discussion.....but what the hell?

    How do you guys want to see the pulps used in DC? Should DC even bother, or is interest in this particular kind of story too dead to bother with? Is there a particular creator who you think could make it work? Or a particular character you think would fit the sensibility well? If you could pull one of the classic pulp heroes into DC, who would it be and why?
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member Güicho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I've always been a fan of the old school pulp heroes like Green Hornet, Shadow, Phantom, Zorro, etc. And I find it rather sad that these classic characters aren't under DC's umbrella (they come from a similar era, one grew directly from the other, etc).
    I don't need to see all the pulp heroes crossover with DC.
    DC has more than enough of their own, they are neglecting.
    And I wouldn't want DC or any one company having a monopoly on all these Pulp characters. I'm fine with other companies holding the rights, and exploring them in their own direction.

    As far as which DC characters somewhat works as analogues of some of the classic pulps.
    The obvious
    Classic Zorro is Either El Castigo/The Whip or the western El Diablo,
    Or the most celebrated a contemporary Zorro obviously becomes Batman.


    - Green Hornet analogue is Crimson Avenger, even had the Asian sidekick. With a bit of the Shadow thrown in.
    - Rima was actually a character eventually used in the DCU, yet you can see her influence on several lead heroine characters.
    - There was a couple of Bat themed pulp characters, The Black Bat from Black Book Detective, and Johnston McCulley(under the name C.K.M. Scanlon) created The Bat, from who DC completely ripped off the Bat through the window origin. Obviously Batman would be the DC analogue for those.,
    - Ms. Fury is Catwoman.
    - Some kind of Hybrid of John Carter, Gladiator(Hugo Danner), and Doc Savage would be Superman.
    - Flash Gordon/John Carter is Adam Strange
    - Carter's Barsoom Martians obviously are J'onn J'onzz, crossed with standared pulp era a gumshoe.
    - Flash Gordon's Hawkmen are the Thanagarians
    - Sandman has elements of the Shadow and Green Hornet, and again McCulley's the Bat who also used a gas gun.
    - The Phantom is another analogue for original gun toting Batman)
    - Mandrake became Zatarra


    Few similarities aside, DC actually did a great job creating their own unique Golden-Age characters and world.
    If they wanted an analogues ongoing pulp world, they should just bring back all their GA characters, and actually set them in that time period.
    Starting with the likes of .......

    and...


    And their original "Ghost Detective" Doctor Occult
    Last edited by Güicho; 04-07-2020 at 07:02 AM.

  3. #3
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    DC already has plenty of Golden Age characters that would fit these roles, like the Crimson Avenger (who was basically a re-working of the Green Hornet).

    They just don't want those stories cluttering up their current screwed-up universe!

  4. #4
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    The Crimson Avenger is The Green Hornet pretty much

    Midnight from Quality Comics, I think, was an attempt to take the Spirit without having to pay Eisner.

    You could probably rework the Superman stand-in Iron Munro into a more pulpish Superman (though maybe not quite Doc Savage) especially if you moved his conception back to around 1911 where Gladiator makes it more probable. Or since the novel seems to be in public domain you could just rework Hugo Danner himself as that sort of character following his supposed death at the end of the novel.

    DC's First Wave had promised a few more pulpish versions of DC heroes (I remember Black Canary being mentioned). I'm sure that between DC's own characters from the Golden Age and those of the companies they later acquired (Quality, Fawcett) there are other obscure characters that could be re-positioned as pulp analogues,

  5. #5
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    . . . Midnight from Quality Comics, I think, was an attempt to take the Spirit without having to pay Eisner.
    Actually, Quality Comics was later reprinting Eisner's The Spirit newspaper adventures in Police Comics.
    There are some who have said Quality created Midnight in case anything happened to Eisner and The Spirit.
    see: http://www.toonopedia.com/midnight.htm

  6. #6
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    The Crimson Avenger is The Green Hornet pretty much

    Midnight from Quality Comics, I think, was an attempt to take the Spirit without having to pay Eisner.

    You could probably rework the Superman stand-in Iron Munro into a more pulpish Superman (though maybe not quite Doc Savage) especially if you moved his conception back to around 1911 where Gladiator makes it more probable. Or since the novel seems to be in public domain you could just rework Hugo Danner himself as that sort of character following his supposed death at the end of the novel.

    DC's First Wave had promised a few more pulpish versions of DC heroes (I remember Black Canary being mentioned). I'm sure that between DC's own characters from the Golden Age and those of the companies they later acquired (Quality, Fawcett) there are other obscure characters that could be re-positioned as pulp analogues,
    I do wish they would do more with the Crimson Avenger. I actually rather liked the updated one that Johns introduced in his JSA, too. Not terribly pulp-y, but sort of a modernized "pulp meets urban grit" sorta thing. She was interesting. But odds are the "Avenger" name is enough to kill any possibility of DC using the character. Can't go around advertising for the competition after all, especially when the competition is crushing you in most industries.

    I think there's plenty of characters with bona fide pulp cred (Mid-Nite, Hourman, etc) and plenty of others who could fit the bill with minimal adjustment (Iron Munroe, as you mention) and there's even newer characters like The Others, and I guess we can include Moore's ABC characters like Tom Strong and Promethea, since DC is apparently using them now.

    But for all the pulp potential, we don't really see DC pull the trigger on it. And on the rare occasion they do, it's short lived (First Wave). Hell, they've even abandoned the pulp roots of Batman and moved the character completely away from those sensibilities.

    I suppose there's just not much interest in the subgenre anymore. At least not enough to make it worthwhile for DC to invest and put real effort into it. It's a shame. I think DC could make it work if they spun it right but I'm not sure what that would look like.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  7. #7
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    The Crimson Avenger is The Green Hornet pretty much

    Midnight from Quality Comics, I think, was an attempt to take the Spirit without having to pay Eisner.

    You could probably rework the Superman stand-in Iron Munro into a more pulpish Superman (though maybe not quite Doc Savage) especially if you moved his conception back to around 1911 where Gladiator makes it more probable. Or since the novel seems to be in public domain you could just rework Hugo Danner himself as that sort of character following his supposed death at the end of the novel.

    DC's First Wave had promised a few more pulpish versions of DC heroes (I remember Black Canary being mentioned). I'm sure that between DC's own characters from the Golden Age and those of the companies they later acquired (Quality, Fawcett) there are other obscure characters that could be re-positioned as pulp analogues,
    Moving Iron Munroe towards a more Doc Savage-ish direction is a smart idea.

    As everybody has already pointed out, The Crimson Avenger & Wing were shameless rip-offs of Green Hornet & Wing, just as Zatara was initially a Mandrake The Magician knock-off. However, these characters have all evolved into something new and unique.

    I particularly like how Ostrander sprinkled in a bit of The Shadow's faux Oriential mysticism into the Crimson Avenger's backstory by having Lee Travis visit Nanda Parbat in his youth, where he witnessed a vision prophesying the death of Superman. That's a nice way of keeping Superman's importance while also acknowledging the importance of the mystery men of the pulps.

    DC doesn't quite have a Flash Gordon-type, although Adam Strange shares some of his DNA, but through the lense of the 1950s Scientist-Hero mold.

    Gary Concord is another out-and-out Buck Rogers ripoff, but nobody but Roy Thomas has ever done anything with him.

  8. #8
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    If you enjoy pulp heroes, you may want to look at the latest Hawkman series; it has a real pulp adventure feel to it.

    Yeah, Crimson Avenger is an imitation of Green Hornet…but not a good imitation. Not only is his pseudonym a mouthful to say, Crimson Avenger sounds less like an alias and more like an epithet e.g. The Dark-Knight Detective; The Emerald Archer and etcetera.

    Some say the Crimson Avenger evolved into something else. I don’t see it. I feel the Sandman was a better pulp hero than Crimson Avenger…but maybe I am just biased.
    Last edited by scary harpy; 08-20-2018 at 07:33 AM.

  9. #9
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    As everybody has already pointed out, The Crimson Avenger & Wing were shameless rip-offs of Green Hornet & Wing, . . .
    I didn't think Wing How worked for Britt Reid . . .

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    I didn't think Wing How worked for Britt Reid . . .
    Kato & Wing are indistinguishable from one another in both comics and my mind.

    And he's Bruce Lee in all incarnations, too.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    If you enjoy pulp heroes, you may want to look at the latest Hawkman series; it has a real pulp adventure feel to it.

    Yeah, Crimson Avenger is an imitation of Green Hornet…but not a good imitation. Not only is his pseudonym a mouthful to say, Crimson Avenger sounds less like an alias and more like an epithet e.g. The Dark-Knight Detective; The Emerald Archer and etcetera.

    Some say the Crimson Avenger evolved into something else. I don’t see it. I feel the Sandman was a better pulp hero than Crimson Avenger…but maybe I am just biased.
    He was generally referred to as just "The Crimson" during the 30's and 40's.

    And, yeah, Wesley Dodds Sandman is absolutely a pulp character that is in no way a rip-off of anyone else, which is likely why he's been given more love than Lee Travis ever gets. I certainly prefer Sandman to Crimson Avenger any day.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    He was generally referred to as just "The Crimson" during the 30's and 40's.
    I did not know that.

    That actually could work.

    Thanks.

    The Crimson: the Blood Avenger...not bad. I base this off of her, of course. I really don't know Lee's shtick...other than having elements of Green Hornet and the Shadow.
    Last edited by scary harpy; 08-20-2018 at 10:55 AM.

  13. #13
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    In a way, Mister Terrific (Michael Holt) is something of a Doc Savage for our times, substituting an infinite supply of skills for super strength.

  14. #14

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    I think -- in name only the Red Bee -- was supposed to be a Green Hornet ripoff, but it hardly seemed worthwhile.

    Sandy Hausler

  15. #15
    Ultimate Member Robotman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    In a way, Mister Terrific (Michael Holt) is something of a Doc Savage for our times, substituting an infinite supply of skills for super strength.
    Yeah, The Terrifics has definitely shown Michael to be a modern version of Doc Savage. The “super science” adventurer who has peak human mental and physical abilities. They even have Tom Strong set to make an appearance. Kinda indicating that Mr. Terrific is his Earth 0 equivalent.

    Ghost Fist from The Immortal Men is another new pulp hero very much in the vain of The Shadow.

    Ya’Wara from Aquaman and The Others is similar to Sheena: Queen of the Jungle or Rima the Jungle Girl
    Last edited by Robotman; 08-20-2018 at 01:29 PM.

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