The Rectangle: Jean/Scott/Emma/Logan Discussion

[TheCape]

When I saw how many series Marvel was slapping together around the whole thing, I smelled a rat. I'm glad I saved my money. Red was probably the biggest disappointment for me personally because Jean matters a lot to me. When I saw the direction Taylor took with that book, I was deeply disappointed. I'm becoming increasing ambivalent about her. I've avoided the whole AoXM run because it simply doesn't interest me. I'm hoping her return to Uncanny will herald the return of good Jean stories. I do have more faith in Rosenberg when it comes to her, though I don't know if he'll still be on Uncanny then. I'm a little out of the loop in that regard.

Even if you avoid most of then, the main one (Return Of Wolverine), is pretty dull, you didn't lost much, beyond some nice artwork here and there. I hope that Uncanny future is a brighter one, but i'm not holding my breath.

[SpiderClops]

The ‘Scott is bad’ bit was only since IvX and that pretty much over now. Under Bendis and during Shism, it was Scott is the ‘cool edgy rebel’ bad. He had years of Scott is the ‘greatest leader ever.’ Beast was the only one really critical and he was painted in a very bad light over it. Rachel was really the only one to call him out over Emma, anyone else who said anything got over it really quickly.

I see you have not been reading current Uncanny X-Men.

[Ulfhammer]

Curse your ever-present and sound logic. I'll go down with Scemma!

In all seriousness, I will always have a soft spot for Scemma when it was good, but I'm not foolish enough to think it's on Jott's level. Still, I'm heartened by the fact that it had its moments.

You know I'm sympathetic to Emma. Mostly the whole thing kind of seemed sad to me. Two people who desperately wanted something the other person just couldn't give. All that to say, it's doesn't change how I feel about Jean and Scott. That doesn't mean Scemma didn't (and doesn't) matter.

[Hizashi]

You know I'm sympathetic to Emma. Mostly the whole thing kind of seemed sad to me. Two people who desperately wanted something the other person just couldn't give. All that to say, it's doesn't change how I feel about Jean and Scott. That doesn't mean Scemma didn't (and doesn't) matter.

Yep, I know. Didn’t mean to imply you had anything against Scemma.

[spirit2011]

That was a very specific narrative, and none of his victories were painted as his alone.

he was still the center of franchise

Why? Who decreed from on high that any relationship needs to end? No one, that's who. It's up to the people involved. It's not fate. It's just choices. Hard choices that most people won't make because there's an "easy" way out.

Of course it's the responsibility of every parent to look out for number 1. Screw the kids I decided to have. My happiness comes first! Why should I care that the kids of my divorce will have worse marks in school, are much more likely to live below the poverty line, a much higher chance of experiencing divorce themselves, higher rates of drug and alcohol abuse and a much higher rate of suicide. At least I got rid of that ex-wife that wasn't kinky enough for me.

Staying together because the kids isn't always the best option. Kids know when parents aren't happy and if they think that parents are together only for them, kids can feels guilty.
some relationships are too toxisc to even continue

Sure. And if they ever get married in the future, Jean should get to have an affair too right? Fair and equal aren't the same thing.

Why not? I would like to know if fans would forgive Jean as fast as they forgave Scott.
or fans would ask to Jean stay dead for another decade.
It would be fan

why Scott can always date someone else, but Jean can't?

[Ulfhammer]

he was still the center of franchise

Storm's been that before, and for quite some time. Jean is now. Kitty was that for the last couple of years. I didn't see you objecting to any of that.

Staying together because the kids isn't always the best option. Kids know when parents aren't happy and if they think that parents are together only for them, kids can feels guilty.
some relationships are too toxisc to even continue

It's a factor couples needs to take into account. Of course I don't support continuing a relationship entirely for that reason, but when you become a parent, you have a responsibility to do what's best for your kids. If you need to get your spouse out of the picture (permanently or not) due to serious addictions or abuse, then that's what's best for you and your kids. Yanking families apart because you can't act like an adult or accept your spouse for who they are wouldn't be valid reasons in my mind. Of course people are free to do whatever they want, but there's a price to pay, and it's not a small price.

Why not? I would like to know if fans would forgive Jean as fast as they forgave Scott.
or fans would ask to Jean stay dead for another decade.
It would be fan

why Scott can always date someone else, but Jean can't?

Well, starting off a relationship suggesting infidelity is going to happen, and should be accepted because the other partner did it first is nonsense. If you plan on cheating on your SO when you get into the relationship to settle past wrongs, it's probably best you don't pursue that relationship because it's obviously not going to end well. Couples need to learn from mistakes, not plan to equalize them.

Don't generalize about Scott dating other people. Most of those occurrences have plenty of context you fail to mention. If Marvel wanted Jean to play the field, they should either not have leaned back into Jott so hard, or they should have kept Scott dead longer while Jean was alive. They didn't so it's a moot point. When they're both alive, we have consistently seen them gravitate towards each other. That's part of the nature of their characters and how they relate to each other and it's also due to the weight of their shared history. Jean happens to have been dead a lot longer so Scott has had to live while she was absent. If the situations were reversed, would you want to see Jean wearing sackcloth and ashes the entire time Scott was dead? I would hope not.

[Hizashi]

he was still the center of franchise

He was certainly a central figure but other characters had their time in the limelight and Scott was hardly the only driving character. Still, you're right about him being at the center of the franchise.

Staying together because the kids isn't always the best option. Kids know when parents aren't happy and if they think that parents are together only for them, kids can feels guilty.
some relationships are too toxic to even continue

That's true, but there isn't one-size-fits-all to those sorts of things, the kids can blame themselves for example. Two people who were at the verge of splitting up trying to make it work for their kids can find each other again, it happens.

Why not? I would like to know if fans would forgive Jean as fast as they forgave Scott.
or fans would ask to Jean stay dead for another decade.
It would be fan

why Scott can always date someone else, but Jean can't?

The affair was psychic and no matter how any one person feels about it, it wasn't real/physical - unless someone on Legion's/X-Man's level makes it happen they're just thoughts that feel like the real-deal. Regardless, this hypothetical isn't worth thinking about, since it isn't gonna happen. Marvel isn't going to turn any of their premier female leads into a cheater (other than Emma of course), which you actively want for some reason.

Besides, there are plenty of fans who haven't forgiven Scott for Maddie, let alone the psychic affair. The vast majority of Scott's fans hold him accountable for his actions, it isn't a blind forgiveness. Jean having an affair to satisfy the animus of certain Jean fans would hardly be forgivable.

[spirit2011]

Storm's been that before, and for quite some time. Jean is now. Kitty was that for the last couple of years. I didn't see you objecting to any of that.

None of them were centered as supreme leader like Cyclops. Jean only lead one team and that lasted 11 issues.

It's a factor couples needs to take into account. Of course I don't support continuing a relationship entirely for that reason, but when you become a parent, you have a responsibility to do what's best for your kids. If you need to get your spouse out of the picture (permanently or not) due to serious addictions or abuse, then that's what's best for you and your kids. Yanking families apart because you can't act like an adult or accept your spouse for who they are wouldn't be valid reasons in my mind. Of course people are free to do whatever they want, but there's a price to pay, and it's not a small price.

I was on the commenting for "staying together for the kids" from blink 182's music video. There was both cases, some made it work for the kids and they are happy. Some tried and made the kids unhappy, because both parents are miserable. and some just divorced and kids accepted it was for better.
Each case is a case, some people should never ever have kids or even marry.

Well, starting off a relationship suggesting infidelity is going to happen, and should be accepted because the other partner did it first is nonsense. If you plan on cheating on your SO when you get into the relationship to settle past wrongs, it's probably best you don't pursue that relationship because it's obviously not going to end well. Couples need to learn from mistakes, not plan to equalize them.

No one is suggesting that Jean would get back to Cyclops just to get the chance of cheating on him. I don't think she would ever cheat on him.
That was a what if situation...

Don't generalize about Scott dating other people. Most of those occurrences have plenty of context you fail to mention. If Marvel wanted Jean to play the field, they should either not have leaned back into Jott so hard, or they should have kept Scott dead longer while Jean was alive. They didn't so it's a moot point. When they're both alive, we have consistently seen them gravitate towards each other. That's part of the nature of their characters and how they relate to each other and it's also due to the weight of their shared history. Jean happens to have been dead a lot longer so Scott has had to live while she was absent. If the situations were reversed, would you want to see Jean wearing sackcloth and ashes the entire time Scott was dead? I would hope not.

I don't think I need to explain the context for Scott dating history. Everyone really knows when it happened.

They never really cared to give Jean the same importance of Scott. it is why Jean get 15 years dead and Scott get 4.

Marvel isn't obligated to have Jean hook up with Scott, just because both are alive. Jean could just say no and have a romance with someone else. That would be the more realistic approach they could have.

If the situations were reversed, would you want to see Jean wearing sackcloth and ashes the entire time Scott was dead? I would hope not.

what?

[spirit2011]

He was certainly a central figure but other characters had their time in the limelight and Scott was hardly the only driving character. Still, you're right about him being at the center of the franchise.

besides Scott and Emma, others characters barely got development.

The affair was psychic and no matter how any one person feels about it, it wasn't real/physical - unless someone on Legion's/X-Man's level makes it happen they're just thoughts that feel like the real-deal. Regardless, this hypothetical isn't worth thinking about, since it isn't gonna happen. Marvel isn't going to turn any of their premier female leads into a cheater (other than Emma of course), which you actively want for some reason.

thoughts are made alone. When a psychic and aperson share a thought it becomes a very real simulation of real life. If it was just thought psychics would be screwed up, that any trained person would overcome it easily.
Emma isn't a premier female superhero since Scott dumped her.
Who said I want Jean to cheat on Scott? I just don't want her with him

Besides, there are plenty of fans who haven't forgiven Scott for Maddie, let alone the psychic affair. The vast majority of Scott's fans hold him accountable for his actions, it isn't a blind forgiveness. Jean having an affair to satisfy the animus of certain Jean fans would hardly be forgivable.

People who haven't forgiven Scott aer the minority of fans. Scott has a army of online fans, i don't think its indiscretions mattered a lot.
stop with that, people just not gonna forgive Jean anyway

[wano]

I'll forgive Jean when Scott haters forgive Scott, maybe I already have, maybe I just don't care, tehehehe

[Ulfhammer]

None of them were centered as supreme leader like Cyclops. Jean only lead one team and that lasted 11 issues.

Storm was the sole leader for many years on Uncanny. We'll call her supreme leader if you prefer that title. Does this mean that if Jean becomes supreme leader for the next decade, you're going to object? You won't because this isn't about anything but attacking anything Scott has ever achieved or any respect he's ever had. Just call it what it is.

I was on the commenting for "staying together for the kids" from blink 182's music video. There was both cases, some made it work for the kids and they are happy. Some tried and made the kids unhappy, because both parents are miserable. and some just divorced and kids accepted it was for better.
Each case is a case, some people should never ever have kids or even marry.

I agree that it comes down to the particular problems in each relationship. I disagree that it's a zero sum game. It's not a matter of just taking care of your kids, or taking care of yourself. We each have to decide how to accomplish both as a parent. Statistically divorce doesn't generally lead to better outcomes for either the parents or the children across a whole range of quality of life measures from net worth to mental health to life expectancy. There are cases where it's appropiate. I simply disagree with the generic statement that "relationships run their course". That's a euphemism for giving up.

No one is suggesting that Jean would get back to Cyclops just to get the chance of cheating on him. I don't think she would ever cheat on him.
That was a what if situation...

Right, but it was a what if situation that didn't make much sense that I felt you were using to justify Jean arbitrarily being in other relationships because Scott did it. From a characterization point of view that's not good storytelling and I used an example to show how rediculous that line of thinking could become if extended to other factors in the relationship.

I don't think I need to explain the context for Scott dating history. Everyone really knows when it happened.

They never really cared to give Jean the same importance of Scott. it is why Jean get 15 years dead and Scott get 4.

Marvel isn't obligated to have Jean hook up with Scott, just because both are alive. Jean could just say no and have a romance with someone else. That would be the more realistic approach they could have.

Marvel isn't obligated to do anything. What I hope they will do is depict characters in a way that aligns with their history. Jean's history reasonably leads us to believe that she will gravitate back to Scott eventually. That's called consistency. It's not a hard and fast rule.

what?

In ancient times people would wear sackcloth clothing and cover themselves in ashes as a sign of mourning. I was asking if the situation was reversed, would you have not wanted Jean to live while Scott was dead, or would you have proffered she live perpetually in mourning? Given all you've said I have to conclude you would want Jean to live and that includes developing feelings for other people in Scott's absence. If it would have been ok for her, you have to accept that it was ok for him.

[Hizashi]

besides Scott and Emma, others characters barely got development.

Over several years, this is just plain not true.

thoughts are made alone. When a psychic and a person share a thought it becomes a very real simulation of real life. If it was just thought psychics would be screwed up, that any trained person would overcome it easily.
Emma isn't a premier female superhero since Scott dumped her.
Who said I want Jean to cheat on Scott? I just don't want her with him

The nature of telepathy is a topic you and I will never see eye-to-eye on it seems.
Emma seems expendable to Marvel sometimes, it doesn't have to do with Scott dumping her. IvX? And there were Scott and Emma fans alike okay with them not getting back together, but simply hoping for a proper reconciliation and closure.
Yeah, I apologize, I made an assumption when you were raising a hypothetical. Still, I don't know why you'd want to test your theory that way.

People who haven't forgiven Scott are the minority of fans. Scott has a army of online fans, i don't think its indiscretions mattered a lot.
stop with that, people just not gonna forgive Jean anyway

I don't know how we'll ever know whether Scott's detractors are in the minority or not, and this site is hardly indicative of anything. Regardless, as I've said, Scott's most ardent fans don't say he was right to have an affair, or blindly defend every bad action he made.

Forgive Jean for what?

[TheDeadSpace]

Is there any form of middle ground that we can agree on, or is that something that the "rectangle" doesn't offer?

[TheCape]

Is there any form of middle ground that we can agree on, or is that something that the "rectangle" doesn't offer?

Hey, i suggested one already.
Scott and Colleen Wing get another chance.
Jean can date Classic Thor (moden Thor is wash).
And Logan and Elektra can have a go too if Marvel wish it.

My solution is too good thougth, so it would never happen

[TheDeadSpace]

Hey, i suggested one already.
Scott and Colleen Wing get another chance.
Jean can date Classic Thor (moden Thor is wash).
And Logan and Elektra can have a go too if Marvel wish it.

My solution is too good thougth, so it would never happen

Well, that definitely sounds like a solution to end the "rectangle", but as you mentioned, Marvel wouldn't do it. I'm not sure how I'd feel about it either.

I was leaning more towards a middle ground in ideology/views of the "rectangle", but I think I already know the answer: Scott is the problem.