The Rectangle: Jean/Scott/Emma/Logan Discussion

[Hizashi]

This post. I wanted to comment on the scan I posted. But couldn't articulate it very well. But this is pretty much exactly I wanted to say. Thank you.

So what was that about Scott is an insecure man who can't take that his woman is so powerful, again?

Yeah, I just don’t see the point of doing things that way. It’s an AU, they could’ve done anything at all and they still manage to fudge it up.

[Hizashi]

I don't think I have other examples besides the 14 years dead

I think I can have both





Marvel just used how it should be used, Morrison set up phoenix without Jean.

Morrison said Jean was like his ex and Emma was more his actual GF.



Jean would never let Cyclops become rightclops and commit the mistakes he did. His narrative wasn't dependent on her dead, but benefited from it



that turned out really great for Jean. Really great seeing your husband kissing another woman on your grave.

So we have at most two, if we’re being generous; really, they’re tied together so it’s more like one. That’s it in decades’ worth of stories.

Of course you can - hopefully we don’t get any writers with that sort of mentality towards any characters in the books.

Again, an expansion of character/concept mythology doesn’t mean that Marvel’s decision was what was intended. Besides, what happened to the cheer that Jean was free from the Phoenix? When did Morrison say that about Jean and Emma?

That’s your perspective, but if you look at it from an objective, non-linear perspective Jean herself wouldn’t have changed enough to prove her death was necessary for Scott’s narrative as the leader of the X-Men/mutant race. Maybe they would’ve been co-leaders, but he’s still in the spotlight.

Yet another poor decision made by Marvel that no fan endorses.

[Hizashi]

Yes. They're both heroes.

Haha, I’m with SpiderClops, it’s a little embarrassing, but thank you.

[AHRNIHAL]

Lol, all started because i didn't want to respond to AHRNIHAL in the Cyclops threads, i have fun thougth

Edit: Well restarted anyway.

I actually forgot that's how this thread is revived.Good you did that.

[AHRNIHAL]

Haha, I’m with SpiderClops, it’s a little embarrassing, but thank you.

You both deserved it.

[spirit2011]

So we have at most two, if we’re being generous; really, they’re tied together so it’s more like one. That’s it in decades’ worth of stories.

Of course you can - hopefully we don’t get any writers with that sort of mentality towards any characters in the books.

I think the writers are all Scott and Jott fans, so I don't think it gonna happen. unfortunaly for me

Again, an expansion of character/concept mythology doesn’t mean that Marvel’s decision was what was intended. Besides, what happened to the cheer that Jean was free from the Phoenix? When did Morrison say that about Jean and Emma?

Excuses. Morrison set up phoenix to be used without Jean.
Marvel used phoenix without jean
No surprises here.

probably in some interview

That’s your perspective, but if you look at it from an objective, non-linear perspective Jean herself wouldn’t have changed enough to prove her death was necessary for Scott’s narrative as the leader of the X-Men/mutant race. Maybe they would’ve been co-leaders, but he’s still in the spotlight.

Sure he would be still on the spotlight. I already talked that his narrative wasn't base on Jean, seemed after her death that he didn't ever loved her.
Jean just wouldn't give him a easy life as leader

Yet another poor decision made by Marvel that no fan endorses.

sure, but it happened. Fan disagreement won't change it

[Starrius]

There is a strong split in Scott relationship fans - Scott/Jean fans and Scott/Emma fans
I am a Scott/Jean fan since reading X-Factor back in 1986 when I was a teenager

There is a strong split in Dick relationship fans - Dick/Kory (Nightwing/Starfire) fans and Dick/Barbara (Nightwing/Batgirl) fans

I used to be a Dick/Barbara fan since late 1990s from watching Batman Animated Series when I was in my 20s.
I have liked Barbara since the 1970s from watching the Batman and Robin cartoon show with Adam West,Burt Ward when I was a little kid.
Last month, I stopped being a Dick/Barbara fan and became a Dick/Kory fan after watching Teen Titans: Judas Contract and reading a lot of the Wolfman run Titans comic books that were published from 1980 to 1996 and learned about their deep,serious relationship that was based on love and caring. I read all of the Wolfman Titans run. Dick/Kory is now my favorite pairing in DC. Starfire is now my favorite superheroine in DC. After reading and learning about the retcons that elevated Dick/Barbara as true love at the expense of degrading Dick/Kory into lust , I strongly dislike Dick/Barbara. I notice the crapping on of certain character in a pairing to boost another character in a pairing. Like Jean got crapped on to boost Emma as Scott's love interest, Kory got crapped on to boost Barbara as Dick's love interest. Kory is not the heartless alien slut that got in Barbara's way to get with Dick. She is a super-powered alien warrior princess who overcome her past as a slave and still has a big heart and wants to help others not go through what she went through, and that was one of the things that made Dick fall in love with her. She opened him up and helped him express his emotions better. He helped her with restraint and to live on Earth.
I still like Barbara, but I now prefer Kory over her as Dick's love interest.


I made an essay ,Addressing Misconceptions About The Dick/Kory Fanbase that explained how Dick/Kory has history of being a popular and iconic ship going back to the 1980s and 1990s (they were each other's love interest from 1980 to 1994) and it wasn't just the 2000s Teen Titans cartoons.



This is part of my essay that mentioned Scott,Jean,and Emma:


The disastrous wedding and the breaking up of Dick and Kory's relationship were the results of Batman office taking Dick back from the Titans office and not having any control of Kory. Before Dick was taken from the Titans office, there was an original plan of a Nightwing mini-series that establishes Dick's greatness among the superhero community. It involved an alien invasion of Earth that included kidnapping Kory. Dick would go rescue Kory,he proposes marriage with her accepting,and they get a happy wedding. The Mirage stuff,Kory breaking up with Dick,and Dick's desperate marriage proposal seem to be events that were created to lead up to the disastrous wedding and their breakup. Seeing that Batman office has been degrading Kory into Dick's lustful fling while pushing Barbara as Dick's one true love, I am glad that Batman office doesn't have control of Kory. She may have gotten the Jean Grey treatment. Jean Grey was killed off and stayed dead for a long time in order to push a Scott Summers (Cyclops)/Emma Frost relationship which has resulted in a strong split of Scott relationship fans between Scott/Jean and Scott/Emma just like there is a strong split of Dick relationship fans between Dick/Kory and Dick/Barbara (Batgirl,Oracle).

[phoenixzero23]

but now Cyclops is dead and all the crap marvel throw at Jean's and Scott relationship will be used to prop up Jean's next love interest.

I think it's a terrible way to thread any relationship.

[spirit2011]

There is a strong split in Scott relationship fans - Scott/Jean fans and Scott/Emma fans
I am a Scott/Jean fan since reading X-Factor back in 1986 when I was a teenager

There is a strong split Dick relationship fans - Dick/Kory (Nightwing/Starfire) fans and Dick/Barbara (Nightwing/Batgirl) fans

I used to be a Dick/Barbara fan since late 1990s from watching Batman Animated Series when I was in my 20s.
I have liked Barbara since the 1970s from watching the Batman and Robin cartoon show with Adam West,Burt Ward when I was a little kid.
Last month, I stopped being a Dick/Barbara fan and became a Dick/Kory fan after watching Teen Titans: Judas Contract and reading a lot of the Wolfman run Titans books that were published from 1980 to 1996 and learned about their deep,serious relationship that was based on love and caring. I read all of the Wolfman Titans run. Dick/Kory is now my favorite pairing in DC. Starfire is now my favorite superheroine in DC. After reading and learning about the retcons that elevated Dick/Barbara as true love at the expense of degrading Dick/Kory into lust , I strongly dislike Dick/Barbara. I notice the crapping on of certain character in a pairing to boost another character in a pairing. Like Jean got crapped on to boost Emma as Scott's love interest, Kory got crapped on to boost Barbara as Dick's love interest. Kory is not the heartless alien slut that got in Barbara's way to get with Dick. She is a super-powered alien warrior princess who overcome her past as a slave and still has a big heart and wants to help others not go through what she went through, and that was one of the things that made Dick fall in love with her. She opened him up and helped him express his emotions better. He helped her with restraint and to live on Earth.
I still like Barbara, but I now prefer Kory over her as Dick's love interest.


I made an essay ,Addressing Misconceptions About The Dick/Kory Fanbase that explained how Dick/Kory has history of being a popular and iconic ship going back to the 1980s and 1990s (they were each other's love interest from 1980 to 1994) and it wasn't just the 2000s Teen Titans cartoons.



This is part of my essay that mentioned Scott,Jean,and Emma:


The disastrous wedding and the breaking up of Dick and Kory's relationship were the results of Batman office taking Dick back from the Titans office and not having any control of Kory. Before Dick was taken from the Titans office, there was an original plan of a Nightwing mini-series that establishes Dick's greatness among the superhero community. It involved an alien invasion of Earth that included kidnapping Kory. Dick would go rescue Kory,he proposes marriage with her accepting,and they get a happy wedding. The Mirage stuff,Kory breaking up with Dick,and Dick's desperate marriage proposal seem to be events that were created to lead up to the disastrous wedding and their breakup. Seeing that Batman office has been degrading Kory into Dick's lustful fling while pushing Barbara as Dick's one true love, I am glad that Batman office doesn't have control of Kory. She may have gotten the Jean Grey treatment. Jean Grey was killed off and stayed dead for a long time in order to push a Scott Summers (Cyclops)/Emma Frost relationship which has resulted in a strong split of Scott relationship fans between Scott/Jean and Scott/Emma just like there is a strong split of Dick relationship fans between Dick/Kory and Dick/Barbara (Batgirl,Oracle).

while i actively dislike both Scemma and Jott, I'm indifferent to Kory/Dick, barbara/Dick

but now Cyclops is dead and all the crap marvel throw at Jean's and Scott relationship will be used to prop up Jean's next love interest.

I think it's a terrible way to thread any relationship.

It would be only fair. But I doubt it would happen: the writers are Cyclops fans. Just read the last comics were he was mentioned, it was all respectiful for him
Scott is so damn lucky

[Starrius]

while i actively dislike both Scemma and Jott, I'm indifferent to Kory/Dick, barbara/Dick



It would be only fair. But I doubt it would happen: the writers are Cyclops fans. Just read the last comics were he was mentioned, it was all respectiful for him
Scott is so damn lucky

shrugs

I strongly dislike Scott/Emma, but I strongly like Scott/Jean who is my 2nd favorite Marvel couple since 1980s
My favorite Marvel couple is also my favorite comic book couple , and that is Peter/Mary Jane which I have liked since 1970s when I was a little kid

I like both Scott and Jean as characters.
I am not a fan of Wolverine nor Emma.

Wolverine's interactions with Mary Jane were hilarious.
He was actually checking out Mary Jane when he first saw her in the Avengers Tower, and Peter was irritated about that

Peter was getting jealous over Wolverine talking to Mary Jane.
Peter brought up Scott Summers in retort to Wolverine, and that irritated Wolverine.
Mary Jane told Peter that she's not interested in that midget.


During an Avengers practice battle session, Wolverine stabbed Peter, and they got into a physical fight.
Peter was angry and beating him up for not only the stabbing but Wolverine hitting on Mary Jane

When Wolverine made a crack about Mary Jane when she was rumored to be having an affair with Tony Stark, Peter knocked Wolverine right out of the Avenger's Tower.

After Peter died from fatal wounds received by the Morlun, Wolverine came onto Mary Jane.
She furiously slapped him in response.
He only did that because he thought she was better off being angry to get her out of her grief that she could have drowned in.
It was still a bad thing to do - coming onto a man's widow after that man had a tragic death is horrible thing to do
Of course, Peter had a resurrection. Nothing showed anything about Peter finding out what Wolverine did. I'd imagine that Peter would kick his ass again and even much worse.

the newspaper strip showed Wolverine interested in Mary Jane who was disgusted by that


When I was reading Marvel and DC Present featuring The Uncanny X-Men and The New Teen Titans that was released in 1982, I thought Wolverine was going to hit on Kory when he was smiling next to Kory, but he never did.
The X-Men and The Teen Titans were going up against The Dark Phoenix, Darkseid, and Terminator (aka Deathstroke)

[TheCape]

shrugs

I strongly dislike Scott/Emma, but I strongly like Scott/Jean who is my 2nd favorite Marvel couple since 1980s
My favorite Marvel couple is also my favorite comic book couple , and that is Peter/Mary Jane which I have liked since 1970s when I was a little kid

I like both Scott and Jean as characters.
I am not a fan of Wolverine nor Emma.

Wolverine's interactions with Mary Jane were hilarious.
He was actually checking out Mary Jane when he first saw her in the Avengers Tower, and Peter was irritated about that

Peter was getting jealous over Wolverine talking to Mary Jane.
Peter brought up Scott Summers in retort to Wolverine, and that irritated Wolverine.
Mary Jane told Peter that she's not interested in that midget.


During a practice battle session, Wolverine stabbed Peter, and they got into a physical fight.
Peter was angry and kicking his ass of not only the stabbing but Wolverine hitting on Mary Jane

When Wolverine made a crack about Mary Jane when she was rumored to be having an affair with Tony Stark, Peter knocked Wolverine right out of the Avenger's Tower.

After Peter was killed by the Morlun, Wolverine came onto Mary Jane, and she furiously slapped him
He only did that because he thought she was better off being angry to get her out of her grief that she could have drowned
It was still a bad thing to do - coming onto a man's widow after that man had a tragic death is horrible thing to do
Of course, Peter experienced a resurrection. Nothing showed anything about Peter finding out what Wolverine did. I'd imagine that Peter would kick his ass again and even much worse.

the comic book strip showed Wolverine interested in Mary Jane who was disgusted by that


When I was reading Marvel and DC Present featuring The Uncanny X-Men and The New Teen Titans, I thought Wolverine was going to hit on Kory when he was smiling next to Kory, but never did.
The X-Men and The Teen Titans were going up against The Dark Phoenix, Darkseid, and Terminator (aka Deathstroke)

Man JMS Wolverine was a pain to read, i don't even why he was acting like an spoiled child to Alfred, good thing that PAD (someone that actually gets him) did some damage control, still it was funny to see how Peter throw him out of the window lol.

[lancer]

There is a strong split in Scott relationship fans - Scott/Jean fans and Scott/Emma fans

I'd say this pretty much sums it up.

[Hizashi]

I know very well it was a damage control, because Jean was back and they wanted JOtt. But they also needed a good reason for Scott look better than Maddie. This would be the start of the pattern of using women to make Scott look better

Look better than Maddie? He came out of that mess looking horrible! Besides, they wanted Jott and so Maddie was sacrificed for it - but it wasn't for Scott alone, if you're going to throw blame, you've gotta give some to Jean here too. Blame them both because it was their coupling specifically that led to Maddie's shelving or blame neither.

Marvel only gave her the role of mutant savior because the intention was start turning her into a villain. JDW already said that he likes her as a villain.
I really didn't thought it was that OOC to Emma get loose and start killing people, she didn't had anyone that could stop her. Havok was inverted, Scott dead, she wasn't friends with any x-men. This is what happens when women get invlved with Scott, they get the short end of the stick

Was JDW editor during the Terrigen Crisis narrative? If not, your point is moot; suppose that he was, it doesn't change the fact that Emma was turned into the villain in a very obvious sudden twist and she was OOC because she's never been someone to kill indiscriminately - with Sentinels no less! And your last point here is actually laughably bad, you're attributing things to Scott that he has nothing to do with. He isn't the reason that Emma was turned into a villain, the reason was that Marvel wanted her to be the villain - and Scott was used to try to rationalize to the fandom that Emma's sudden OOC turn made sense in the hopes that we'd buy her as a supreme villain. Most of us didn't, so they've scaled it back and she's in shades-of-grey.

It doesn't matter what fans think, Quesada was the one with power. Even after he was gone as EiC it still got more 6 years to get Jean back.
Even Jean got back after Scott died. Marvel politics seems obvious here

I don't know how Scemma would work, Scott would never let Jean go if he really loved her. He let his son and his wife to see Jean. And then he was gonna to leave Jean because of Emma? really?

It does matter what fans think, editorial makes decisions all the time that a majority of the fandom are against - that's why it's wrong to vilify Cyclops, as if he is responsible for Quesada's poor decision-making, or fans, as if we condone how Jean's been treated.

Just because we can't quite figure out how Scemma might've worked with Jean around doesn't mean that it would've been impossible - or worse than keeping Jean dead for 14 years. And what, now you're arguing in favor of Jott?

I think the writers are all Scott and Jott fans, so I don't think it gonna happen. unfortunaly for me

I wouldn't want a writer like that to get their hands on any character they dislike.

Excuses. Morrison set up phoenix to be used without Jean.
Marvel used phoenix without jean
No surprises here.

probably in some interview

Not excuses, explanations. The Phoenix egg birthed Jean, not some random schmuck; the other Phoenix hosts show that there's more to the Phoenix mythos, but there's no assertion that Jean is superfluous to it. Marvel could've have done literally anything with it - they made a poor choice.

Sure he would be still on the spotlight. I already talked that his narrative wasn't base on Jean, seemed after her death that he didn't ever loved her.
Jean just wouldn't give him a easy life as leader

Missed my Doctor Who reference .

So she might've been a small thorn in his side - big deal, a sizable portion of the X-Men were against him for some nonsensical reasons. And it seemed after her death that he didn't really love her? What comics have you been reading? Her shadow was always looming over Scemma.

sure, but it happened. Fan disagreement won't change it

Cool, I get that. Still doesn't put it on the fans - or Scott.

[Hizashi]

There is a strong split in Scott relationship fans - Scott/Jean fans and Scott/Emma fans
I am a Scott/Jean fan since reading X-Factor back in 1986 when I was a teenager

There is a strong split in Dick relationship fans - Dick/Kory (Nightwing/Starfire) fans and Dick/Barbara (Nightwing/Batgirl) fans

I used to be a Dick/Barbara fan since late 1990s from watching Batman Animated Series when I was in my 20s.
I have liked Barbara since the 1970s from watching the Batman and Robin cartoon show with Adam West,Burt Ward when I was a little kid.
Last month, I stopped being a Dick/Barbara fan and became a Dick/Kory fan after watching Teen Titans: Judas Contract and reading a lot of the Wolfman run Titans comic books that were published from 1980 to 1996 and learned about their deep,serious relationship that was based on love and caring. I read all of the Wolfman Titans run. Dick/Kory is now my favorite pairing in DC. Starfire is now my favorite superheroine in DC. After reading and learning about the retcons that elevated Dick/Barbara as true love at the expense of degrading Dick/Kory into lust , I strongly dislike Dick/Barbara. I notice the crapping on of certain character in a pairing to boost another character in a pairing. Like Jean got crapped on to boost Emma as Scott's love interest, Kory got crapped on to boost Barbara as Dick's love interest. Kory is not the heartless alien slut that got in Barbara's way to get with Dick. She is a super-powered alien warrior princess who overcome her past as a slave and still has a big heart and wants to help others not go through what she went through, and that was one of the things that made Dick fall in love with her. She opened him up and helped him express his emotions better. He helped her with restraint and to live on Earth.
I still like Barbara, but I now prefer Kory over her as Dick's love interest.


I made an essay ,Addressing Misconceptions About The Dick/Kory Fanbase that explained how Dick/Kory has history of being a popular and iconic ship going back to the 1980s and 1990s (they were each other's love interest from 1980 to 1994) and it wasn't just the 2000s Teen Titans cartoons.



This is part of my essay that mentioned Scott,Jean,and Emma:


The disastrous wedding and the breaking up of Dick and Kory's relationship were the results of Batman office taking Dick back from the Titans office and not having any control of Kory. Before Dick was taken from the Titans office, there was an original plan of a Nightwing mini-series that establishes Dick's greatness among the superhero community. It involved an alien invasion of Earth that included kidnapping Kory. Dick would go rescue Kory,he proposes marriage with her accepting,and they get a happy wedding. The Mirage stuff,Kory breaking up with Dick,and Dick's desperate marriage proposal seem to be events that were created to lead up to the disastrous wedding and their breakup. Seeing that Batman office has been degrading Kory into Dick's lustful fling while pushing Barbara as Dick's one true love, I am glad that Batman office doesn't have control of Kory. She may have gotten the Jean Grey treatment. Jean Grey was killed off and stayed dead for a long time in order to push a Scott Summers (Cyclops)/Emma Frost relationship which has resulted in a strong split of Scott relationship fans between Scott/Jean and Scott/Emma just like there is a strong split of Dick relationship fans between Dick/Kory and Dick/Barbara (Batgirl,Oracle).

Then there are dark horse candidates like me (and others I'm sure) who don't have a strong preference for either Jott or Scemma, I just want characters to be respected.

As for Dick/Babs or Dick/Kory, I also sorta like both - although I'm currently in the camp that wants to see Dick/Kory make a comeback. Dick/Babs isn't being written in a way that excites me to see them together.

[PrezValentine]

That still doesn't sound very healthy.

It's a quarantine method. I'd say it's actually pretty healthy. Just look at the arguments in favor of the X-Line and Jean's love life being handled as a "fuck you" to Scott. Containment is a good measure.