The Rectangle: Jean/Scott/Emma/Logan Discussion

[lancer]

Blowing holes in hotels to create a quick exit, rather than using the elevator because your pissed off is grossly inappropriate yeah. It's certainly not murderous intent, but I think it's useful to illustrate the Jean has in fact been shown to have a significant temper.

Again, absolutely she overreacted. However, not in a violently dangerous way. Noone was endangered in that scene. The narration is explicit in this regard. This is not about me denying that Jean as a temper. You posted this scene as some sort of historical proof that you can't definitively say that sanctioning kill squads would be out of character. I fundamentally disagree with that. I don't think this scene provides any concrete evidence of that. A bad temper is a long ways from sanctioning black ops kill squads.

Beyond simply being capable of killing, Jean has killed. That's the point. To say she's unwilling to kill or condone killing under any circumstance is inconsistent with her history.

And there is a big difference between killing in the heat of battle and going out with the intention to kill. That is the mission statement. Kill these people. That most assuredly is not consistent with Jean Grey's historical characterization.

Secrecy in and of itself isn't an indication of guilt, only an indication of discretion. Scott knew that likely the decision would be challenged, no doubt. I also think part of it was that he was unwilling to burden the rest of the X-Men's consciences with what he had decided was necessary.

I really am loathe to discuss this because I didn't read any of these books. However, I do not need to have read them to know that I am fundamentally against that development for his character. He is among the last X Men who should be condoning that.

I read that he kept it secret, that is why I brought it up. I ask again. If it was cut and dry that was no other choice, why the need for secrecy. Burden? What burden, it's an absolute situation, kill or be killed. No burden to be relieved. Unless, of course, some of them would disagree. Which means there was some level of ambiguity to it, and if there was I think Cyclops should be on the no kill squad side.

As I said, though, if there was no ambiguity. They have been backed into a corner with no other choice, I would then argue that story shouldn't have been told. Don't plot it that way. Obviously, if it was the case I wouldn't condemn Scott morally for his actions. I'd be against the story told.

As for me using Scott's OOC behavior, yes I absolutely am using that to some extent to make my case. In some ways it's an even more compelling argument. If Scott can be written going through such an extreme change of philosophy, why couldn't Jean, or anyone else who was leading at the time. In many ways, Jean's historical perspective on killing is very closely aligned with Scott's. If Marvel in their "wisdom" could justify Scott taking that action, I certainly think it's possible they could have gotten Jean there too.

They could do anything with any character. To my dismay, they have in many cases. I stand by my belief that it is not historically consistent with Jean Grey's character to be okay with sending out squads with premeditated murder as their goal. Clearly, they could do with her what they did with Scott . What springs to mind from that is two wrongs don't make a right.

I'll say it again. I didn't read any of these comics. Makes it hard to judge how justified these actions are. My main argument is your posting scans and thinking these scans indicate that Jean might have some inclination towards what Scott did. And I don't see that. Certainly not in the last 2. At least she killed Prism. Btw, this is something I found on the character's Marvel wiki page. is that run bu Marvel or is it run like regular wiki where pretty much anyone can add stuff? Well, this is part of the bio. I knew I'd seen that character since MUTANT MASSACRE.

Prism has apparently died three times during his time as a Marauder. The first was when Jean Grey used her telekinetic powers to throw Prism against a wall, smashing him to pieces. The second was during Inferno, where a group of policemen shot Prism and shattered him. The third and final time was when X-Man used his mental powers to slaughter all of the Marauders. It is unknown if Prism actually did die, or if he was able to piece his crystal body back together; this would explain his overconfidence and willingness to battle those stronger than him (Sinister regularly cloned members of the Marauders when they died).

Regardless, Scott's changes are typically justified as adapting to the circumstances and I think there is a legitimate point to be made about that. Remember, as you commented on the U-Men, X-Force's targets were hardened and remorseless and it's highly unlikely that such threats would have responded to dialogue. With 198 lives left, how many more bets could Scott make that they wouldn't be attacked or could talk down, or non-lethally suppress a threat down without loses. Would Jean have presided over the extinction of the mutant species?

Back to I can't really judge without reading it. The X Men faced a whole lot of remorseless killers before this and didn't go out to kill them. How many mutants were there in the 60s when Trask rounded them all up or 1975 when Stephen Lange planned to do the same?

The number 198, in and of itself, doesn't convince me. I'm nit saying there are none that could either. But as I keep saying, I would be against creating that story. Cyclops, or Jean for that matter, are not characters who should be doing that. I would say that for multiple Marvel characters.

Sorry, there's some miscommunication there. I was suggesting it's worth re-reading Jean's scene at the Waldor in XF 1 and her fight with Scott in XF 18 simply to illustrate that Jean had some disproportionate responses in XF. I certainly am not arguing that X-Factor Investigations bore any similarity to X-Force.

Egads, something else we agree on.

[spirit2011]

He says, "it's Jean or nothing.". I'm not so sure he was completely in the right state of mind. He obviously knew what he was doing, but for what reason is never clarified. Considering the fantasy, I still think he wanted to deal with it in a way that removed Jean from being hurt. Yet, like I mentioned, it was stupid and she still was affected by his actions. However, it doesn't seem like he just wanted to cheat on Jean like she didn't want to fully cheat on him.

Scott say at least twice that he didn't wanted to hurt Jean, then he manages to hurt her really badly.
Scott said that he was trying to save his marriage goint to Emma; Then things started going wrong and Scott doesn't stop himself

[lancer]

True, but regardless of what she intended, had she not messed with his mind, nothing would have happened.

This is what cannot be argued. Without Jean's live, Scott, he is not with Emma. An entire timeline played out where he didn't go with Emma. So, we know that without her interference he isn't with Emma. IMO, there should be no disagreement on that.

The disagreement comes with exactly what she did. I don't think she made him do anything. I think she freed him of his guilt and despair. He was then free to act as he would have without thse things. He has feelings for Emma which he is now free to act on. I don't believe for one second that she put any there. It destroys the narrative that Morrison was trying to create.

I sure as hell don't think she told him to kiss his mistress at her gravesite. Check that, at the cemetery where she was buried. That was indeed where it was it and it indeed makes a difference.
The last page is now merely nauseating as opposed to utterly and completely nauseating.

[TheDeadSpace]

Scott is weak tea that ultimately doesn't have to deal with consequenceses in both situations, but in only one of those situations did he decide (excuse me, Jean decided for him, ever so conveniently) to start up something with the woman who helped a creeper invade Jean's mind.

He still had consequences. The results of both relationships have led him to feel as a bigger screw up. Out of all the characters, he has come out of the situation worse than the three. Jean was kept dead too long, but her character wasn't as badly damaged as his. I'm a bit confused as to how Scott made it out the best and seemingly consequence free?

[TheDeadSpace]

Scott say at least twice that he didn't wanted to hurt Jean, then he manages to hurt her really badly.
Scott said that he was trying to save his marriage goint to Emma; Then things started going wrong and Scott doesn't stop himself

I can agree with all of this. In fact, I feel that's the biggest mistake made by Scott. His miscommunication to Jean to clarify the problem and how he intended to fix it. He obviously chose wrong, but that demonstrates that he wasn't thinking clearly (other than being written OOC). It also didn't help that Jean suddenly decided not to reestablish their psychic rapport. It was obviously set up in a way for things to crumble.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

The idea that all of then have been overeacting hasn't even come to you dude. Like, i don't have the same love for Cyclops that a good chunk of this forum had (thougth i do like him), but is way too soon to be angsting of what is going to happen, when truly we don't have a freaking clue beyond assumptions.

They could be overreacting true though I've seen several Scott fans declare that he HAS to lead once he's back...and many Jean fans don't want her to just get shunted off to a support role again after she's been dead for over a decade just so Scott can shine...

[spirit2011]

I can agree with all of this. In fact, I feel that's the biggest mistake made by Scott. His miscommunication to Jean to clarify the problem and how he intended to fix it. He obviously chose wrong, but that demonstrates that he wasn't thinking clearly (other than being written OOC). It also didn't help that Jean suddenly decided to break their psychic rapport. It was obviously set up in a way for things to crumble.

She didn't broke the rapport, it was broken apocalypse possession

[TheDeadSpace]

She didn't broke the rapport, it was broken apocalypse possession

That's my bad, meant reestablish.

[Disciple of Redd]

He still had consequences. The results of both relationships have led him to feel as a bigger screw up. Out of all the characters, he has come out of the situation worse than the three. Jean was kept dead too long, but her character wasn't as badly damaged as his. I'm a bit confused as to how Scott made it out the best and seemingly consequence free?

He gets to say Maddy was evil the whole time and get out of his marriage.

He gets to get out of his marriage without having to choose to do so because his wife conveniently died.

He gets Emma despite her actions against the woman he loved (maybe?), but doesn't have to actively choose her, just in case he wants to break it off and get back with Jean one day. In fact, even though she is dead, Jean has the presence of mind to say it's a great idea and FORCES him to do what he wants permission to do because THE ENTIRE WORLD WILL DIE if Cyclops doesn't get with Emma Frost.

All wins for Cyke, with the story carefully written so that he doesn't have blame for anything.

And people like this character lol.

[Cyyyke]

And people like this character lol.

yeah, I wonder why

[Disciple of Redd]

yeah, I wonder why

I dunno man.

Good choices or bad, I like characters that actively make choices and don't get infinite contrivances for everything. The same reason I, along with everyone with good story sense, hate the "The Phoenix wasn't actually Jean Grey" retcon.

[TheDeadSpace]

He gets to say Maddy was evil the whole time and get out of his marriage.

He gets to get out of his marriage without having to choose to do so because his wife conveniently died.

He gets Emma despite her actions against the woman he loved (maybe?), but doesn't have to actively choose her, just in case he wants to break it off and get back with Jean one day. In fact, even though she is dead, Jean has the presence of mind to say it's a great idea and FORCES him to do what he wants permission to do because THE ENTIRE WORLD WILL DIE if Cyclops doesn't get with Emma Frost.

All wins for Cyke, with the story carefully written so that he doesn't have blame for anything.

And people like this character lol.

Technically the Maddy was evil thing was set up for Jean to get back with Scott. It's a retcon for both. Also, Jean pushed and encouraged him to move on with her. If anyone is to blame, it's Sinister. "Conveniently dying" didn't keep Scott consequent free. Rachel and Logan both confronted him on it. Others could have too, but it was a writer choice. Also with a relationship with Emma, Jean's death loomed over the relationship aside from a few times in which Scemma was discussed as a great relationship. So, they don't really seem like wins with all things considered.

[Cyyyke]

I dunno man.

I mean, there are other aspects of this character that are likable and compelling. Who looks good in this rectangle? But this mess doesn’t necessarily define who they are. Jean is empathetic, kind, a character full of love and goodness. Scott is a strong, determined, brilliant tactician. There’s a good heart inside Emma and I don’t think I need to list what traits Logan has that make him so popular. There’s no need fighting over just a single part of their characterizations (which, apparently, are the worst, deliberately set by writers to create drama) and it’s unfair, too.

[SpiderClops]

That is exactly what happens, he knows Jean is back and then wants to kill her. And he never thinks about a plan to save Jean from the phoenix, he wants Jean gone

Because he thought it was Dark Phoenix. He doesn't even believe that it's actually Jean. Logan, too, agrees that they need to kill her(even before understanding that it's Dark Phoenix by the way).

I don't think he ever says that he want to kill Jean.

[ExodusCloak]

Scotts response to Emma's past and to the DPS