The Rectangle: Jean/Scott/Emma/Logan Discussion

[TheCape]

We all know how it's going to play out. Some version of:

Jean gets into a new romance, perhaps with Logan or somebody completely new. Marvel builds it up as the hot, new ship as they did with Scemma. At some point, Scott comes back. Much angst and drama as Jean is torn between her back-from-the-dead husband and her new love. Ultimately, Scott and Jean, though they still love each other and proclaim that they always will, decide that they're different people now, it's time to move on, etc., etc., etc. Lots of trite, hipster pop-psychology bullshit about modern relationships. Blah blah blah. While angsting over Jean and pining for her, Scott either gets back together with Emma or hooks up with someone new. Meanwhile, Jean's new relationship starts to fray. Just as Scott's relationship heats up, Jean's comes apart and so it's her turn to angst over Scott and pine for him. Finally, there's some kind of event or storyline that culminates with Scott dumping whoever he's with and going back to Jean. Marvel goes for the nostalgia appeal and makes a big thing of it, perhaps up to and including Scott and Jean having a second wedding ceremony or renewal of their vows.

Fast-forward a few years. Marvel gets bored with Jott again and breaks them up again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

On a side note, my preferred beta option for Scott has always been Lee Forrester. The tough, spunky tomboy who, in true Claremont fashion, is nevertheless sweet and smokin' hot.

Hahah, i had to agreed with that, the desert island issue was pretty damn hot

[FUBAR007]

Haha, I'm fully in agreement with you here. Despite the fact that we argued for pages about the rationale behind their decisions, there's no question that if they'd been in-character, Jean and Scott would've confronted whatever problem had arisen from his post-possession and dealt with it. That's a story I would've liked to read, even if I enjoyed many of the stories that followed Morrison's run.

Exactly.

More and more, I've come to the conclusion that, in terms of characterization, Morrison's run makes more sense as a soft reboot than as a sequel to 90s X-Men. If you take it on its own terms, it works. If you try to read it as a continuation of Claremont-era/90s X-Men, it doesn't.

[FUBAR007]

I thought Marvel portrayed Scott as a lousy person as far as his treatment of women, but it made him seem very human at the same time. He's no hero in his personal life, just a guy, and not one you'd want your sister or daughter or niece to date. It makes for an interesting character.

I found he and Emma to be far more interesting together than he and Jean ever were. They were broken together, and that made a pretty compelling couple.

Scott and Jean were more like an old habit. It read like they didn't truly see one another, just what they wanted the other person to be. They were the high school sweethearts who grew up together, and never realized they grew apart, just kept going through the same motions. I also disliked that Jean was used for Scott's character development, whereas the reverse wasn't true.

So much is in the eye of the beholder. I've read the same stories you have and come away with the completely opposite opinion. Scott and Jean suffered and bled for what they had.

One thing I've noticed: Jott critics really seem to zero in on the fact that the two of them grew up together. As if being high school sweethearts a priori delegitimizes their relationship. Kelly Thompson and Seanan McGuire have made similar comments. I've known more than a few high school sweethearts who went on to have happy, loving, lifelong marriages. It's hardly a far-fetched or credibility-straining concept.

IMO, the strongest knock against Jott is that, with all the tragedy and drama they endured, Scott and Jean rarely seemed to have fun together. Theirs was a heavy relationship, and I strongly suspect that is the core reason many Jott critics don't like it regardless of what they say. Conversely, as much as a I loathe Scemma, naughty fun was the lynchpin of Scott and Emma's relationship. Once Marvel tried to turn Scemma into Jott 2.0, with Emma taking on Jean's roles, the relationship became bland, and enthusiasm for it declined.

If Marvel ever gets around to putting Scott and Jean back together, they need to reiterate exactly what it is they see in each other and WHY they love each other. How they complement each other. It wouldn't hurt to show them having fun once in a while, either.

[silence.]

Ehh.... Logan and Ororo wasn't random, those 2 had been flirting with eacth other since her mohawk days, granted i can't really say that the relationship was well handled especially under Cornell whose work in the characther still make me cringe, but it didn't come out nowhere, the have been implied to be FWB for quite some time.

Not that i want the together with neither thougth, Marvel generally does a poor job when it comes to make 2 superheroes date, unless that both are teamates without solo titles (again this is why is usually a bad idea for Spider-Man and Wolverine to date heroines).

Edit: Hell teamates isn't fool proof, just look the debates beetween fans that aren't exaclty fond of Jott or Romy.... but that's another song.

By random I meant the way that couple was handled (Which was more like randomly mentioned here and there), rather than the actual pairing.

[butterflykyss]

By random I meant the way that couple was handled (Which was more like randomly mentioned here and there), rather than the actual pairing.

it was pretty random to me. flirting was by no means reasons for them to be a couple.

[TheCape]

By random I meant the way that couple was handled (Which was more like randomly mentioned here and there), rather than the actual pairing.

Understandable, they really didn't do a good work with i it. I'm going to stop talking about here, before i derail things, this is exclusive for this 4 characthers.

[jollygoldfish]

Except the issues actually listed by Emma and Wolverine revolve around his libido. They listed the stuff he wanted to talk about it was sex stuff. And he was embarrassed about it

Even if you want to believe that she is a sex therapist once again she was not acting in any professional capacity but as a friend.

He went to help with sex. Emma even says so so does Wolverine. He came to advice to her because she is the "sexy white queen" as per Wolverine. He was started from sex as per Wolverine in New X-Men 115 was feeling emotionally distant from Jean and found someone else. Scott knew what he was doing.

Not sex therapy sessions and even if you want to argue that she is one. She wasn't acting in a professional capacity during the Scott session while she was in Rogue/Gambit. I don't know what "sex therapy" she was helping Rachel through that's the only therapy session I can think of.

No she wasn't acting as a friend. The scans you posted are all towards the end. I'm talking about the beginning.

How does it start? You see an empty seat in a dark room. Then Scott sits down in the empty seat and says he needs someone to talk to about his relationship with Jean. He's in the seat babbling on about what's troubling him and hopes he's come to the right place. It's like a new patient coming in and sitting in the patient's chair in the shrink's office. Then you see Emma saying he came to the right place because she is a qualified sex therapist.

Also, Wolverine never said he went to her for advice because she's the sexy White Queen. He was referring to their affair, not the reasons why he went to Emma. Fast forward to Emma crying after Jean rips her mind. She says to Wolverine she was awful and selfish and Scott's love for Jean is pure. She knows what she's done.

[ExodusCloak]

No she wasn't acting as a friend. The scans you posted are all towards the end. I'm talking about the beginning.

How does it start? You see an empty seat in a dark room. Then Scott sits down in the empty seat and says he needs someone to talk to about his relationship with Jean. He's in the seat babbling on about what's troubling him and hopes he's come to the right place. It's like a new patient coming in and sitting in the patient's chair in the shrink's office. Then you see Emma saying he came to the right place because she is a qualified sex therapist.

Also, Wolverine never said he went to her for advice because she's the sexy White Queen. He was referring to their affair, not the reasons why he went to Emma. Fast forward to Emma crying after Jean rips her mind. She says to Wolverine she was awful and selfish and Scott's love for Jean is pure. She knows what she's done.

She wasn't seen him in the capacity of a therapist. Also just looked at that scene again. That particular scene doesn't mention Emma as a sex therapist. The room is dark because of suspense to see who Scott is talking to. Regardless they weren't seeing each other in an office. They wee seeing each other at every chance they got. While Scott was on missions etc

"She ran around in a corset for everyone but me" for me it's just sensible shoes and rollnecks.

In case she hates what I've become.

It was always about sex. Hell even Morrison had a whole issue with the words sex plastered around the issue

Possessed by nothing but his drab marriage

I've done something stupid Emma and I did something stupid

This is your classic cass of mid life crisis and an affair

And to further point out their friendly chats started in Hong Kong. That was well before the Igor kordy scene

And she didn't say Scott's love for Jean was pure. She said Jean was pure. And he lies next to her without touching her because he feels ordinary and Jean is inhuman which is what the entire arc was the loss of humanity only to regain it right at the end by removing Scott's guilt

Finally in New X-Men 150 Cyclops tells he made a decision between her and Jean. If his mind was tamperd with and his decision was changed from Jean to Emma then she would have known

[spirit2011]

She wasn't seen him in the capacity of a therapist. Also just looked at that scene again. That particular scene doesn't mention Emma as a sex therapist. The room is dark because of suspense to see who Scott is talking to. Regardless they weren't seeing each other in an office. They wee seeing each other at every chance they got. While Scott was on missions etc

"She ran around in a corset for everyone but me" for me it's just sensible shoes and rollnecks.

In case she hates what I've become.

It was always about sex. Hell even Morrison had a whole issue with the words sex plastered around the issue

Possessed by nothing but his drab marriage

I've done something stupid Emma and I did something stupid

This is your classic cass of mid life crisis and an affair

And to further point out their friendly chats started in Hong Kong. That was well before the Igor kordy scene

And she didn't say Scott's love for Jean was pure. She said Jean was pure. And he lies next to her without touching her because he feels ordinary and Jean is inhuman which is what the entire arc was the loss of humanity only to regain it right at the end by removing Scott's guilt

Finally in New X-Men 150 Cyclops tells he made a decision between her and Jean. If his mind was tamperd with and his decision was changed from Jean to Emma then she would have known

I can't believe Cyclops is flirting with Emma with Jean at his side. No way he was innocent on all of this.

Cyclops was going to choose Emma, that is very obvious.

[jollygoldfish]

Except the issues actually listed by Emma and Wolverine revolve around his libido. They listed the stuff he wanted to talk about it was sex stuff. And he was embarrassed about it

Even if you want to believe that she is a sex therapist once again she was not acting in any professional capacity but as a friend.

He went to help with sex. Emma even says so so does Wolverine. He came to advice to her because she is the "sexy white queen" as per Wolverine. He was started from sex as per Wolverine in New X-Men 115 was feeling emotionally distant from Jean and found someone else. Scott knew what he was doing.

Not sex therapy sessions and even if you want to argue that she is one. She wasn't acting in a professional capacity during the Scott session while she was in Rogue/Gambit. I don't know what "sex therapy" she was helping Rachel through that's the only therapy session I can think of.

She wasn't seen him in the capacity of a therapist. Also just looked at that scene again. That particular scene doesn't mention Emma as a sex therapist. The room is dark because of suspense to see who Scott is talking to. Regardless they weren't seeing each other in an office. They wee seeing each other at every chance they got. While Scott was on missions etc

"She ran around in a corset for everyone but me" for me it's just sensible shoes and rollnecks.

In case she hates what I've become.

It was always about sex. Hell even Morrison had a whole issue with the words sex plastered around the issue

Possessed by nothing but his drab marriage

I've done something stupid Emma and I did something stupid

This is your classic cass of mid life crisis and an affair

And to further point out their friendly chats started in Hong Kong. That was well before the Igor kordy scene

And she didn't say Scott's love for Jean was pure. She said Jean was pure. And he lies next to her without touching her because he feels ordinary and Jean is inhuman which is what the entire arc was the loss of humanity only to regain it right at the end by removing Scott's guilt

Finally in New X-Men 150 Cyclops tells he made a decision between her and Jean. If his mind was tamperd with and his decision was changed from Jean to Emma then she would have known

When were they seeing each other every chance they got? They were working together. Scott wasn't going out of his way to be with her. They weren't friends. Scott went to her specifically for therapy. If he wanted sex, he would have slept with her in HK.

I don't have access to the comics as I'm on holiday for a week across Europe so I can't confirm what you've posted. The SO is cross at me as it is for spending time on my phone. But I'm sure she mentioned early on to Scott she was a qualified sex therapist. I also distictly remember Scott being confused about what kind of therapy Emma was putting him through at the beginning. Emma was definitely manipulative in a position where she had Scott's trust to help him and Scott was definitely vulnerable.

I did however find the panel with Emma crying saying she is spiteful, manipulative and their love IS (present tense) special. Scott may not have been in love with Jean at that point but still loved her. So why would he initiate the adultery by deliberately seeking out Emma for sex at the beginning? He wasnt looking for sex or sex fantasies from her but actual help.

[ExodusCloak]

When were they seeing each other every chance they got? They were working together. Scott wasn't going out of his way to be with her. They weren't friends. Scott went to her specifically for therapy. If he wanted sex, he would have slept with her in HK.

I don't have access to the comics as I'm on holiday for a week across Europe so I can't confirm what you've posted. The SO is cross at me as it is for spending time on my phone. But I'm sure she mentioned early on to Scott she was a qualified sex therapist. I also distictly remember Scott being confused about what kind of therapy Emma was putting him through at the beginning. Emma was definitely manipulative in a position where she had Scott's trust to help him and Scott was definitely vulnerable.

I did however find the panel with Emma crying saying she is spiteful, manipulative and their love IS (present tense) special. Scott may not have been in love with Jean at that point but still loved her. So why would he initiate the adultery by deliberately seeking out Emma for sex at the beginning? He wasnt looking for sex or sex fantasies from her but actual help.

No the sex therapist thing was not mentioned at the start. In X-Men 128 when he went on missions she saw him. And after Sophie died their conversation suggested much more then once.
In the Igor kordy scheme Cyclops mentions he wishes to talk and talks about how Jean wore corsets for everyone but him.
He didn't specifically go to her for therapy you can look up the Igor kordy scene. He went to chat like they did in HK

Emma and Cyclops never crossed that line to physical sex. So he wanted sex but the swapping of thoughts was as far as both went. That's why Jean wanted that HK memory and then when she found out they didn't have physical sex moved the goal posts to say "but they were thinking it"

You know when she said that she's being being sardonic. She is manipulate and Jean is so pure. Those are half truths. Their love is special. Yeah that's how anyone who grew up watching TAS would look at it. That's how the outsider views their relationship. However, given Morrison's X-Men the once special marriage was having issues. Which is why she also mentions Scott lying next to her and not touching her. It was all to do with sex as the quote about the corset suggests it

[Peanutsinspace]

No the sex therapist thing was not mentioned at the start. In X-Men 128 when he went on missions she saw him. And after Sophie died their conversation suggested much more then once.
In the Igor kordy scheme Cyclops mentions he wishes to talk and talks about how Jean wore corsets for everyone but him.
He didn't specifically go to her for therapy you can look up the Igor kordy scene. He went to chat like they did in HK

Emma and Cyclops never crossed that line to physical sex. So he wanted sex but the swapping of thoughts was as far as both went. That's why Jean wanted that HK memory and then when she found out they didn't have physical sex moved the goal posts to say "but they were thinking it"

You know when she said that she's being being sardonic. She is manipulate and Jean is so pure. Those are half truths. Their love is special. Yeah that's how anyone who grew up watching TAS would look at it. That's how the outsider views their relationship. However, given Morrison's X-Men the once special marriage was having issues. Which is why she also mentions Scott lying next to her and not touching her. It was all to do with sex as the quote about the corset suggests it

It's mentioned in #131, that's the first time Emma says it and it's their first session as well and in it, Scott asks her if what they're doing is still telepathic therapy or some kind of affair. So, how does that work? You say she was just being his friend but Scott himself is under the impression this is telepathic therapy to work on his marriage issues with Jean. Emma is actively acting as his therapist in these situations. He initially went to her for marriage help, that's what he said. It wasn't because he was some repressed horn dog and just "wanted to have fun." Which jives with the HK scene where Emma suggests a physical affair and Scott tells her it's Jean or nothing. So we know what Scott's intentions were when he went to see her and get help.

[Disciple of Redd]

So much is in the eye of the beholder. I've read the same stories you have and come away with the completely opposite opinion. Scott and Jean suffered and bled for what they had.

One thing I've noticed: Jott critics really seem to zero in on the fact that the two of them grew up together. As if being high school sweethearts a priori delegitimizes their relationship. Kelly Thompson and Seanan McGuire have made similar comments. I've known more than a few high school sweethearts who went on to have happy, loving, lifelong marriages. It's hardly a far-fetched or credibility-straining concept.

IMO, the strongest knock against Jott is that, with all the tragedy and drama they endured, Scott and Jean rarely seemed to have fun together. Theirs was a heavy relationship, and I strongly suspect that is the core reason many Jott critics don't like it regardless of what they say. Conversely, as much as a I loathe Scemma, naughty fun was the lynchpin of Scott and Emma's relationship. Once Marvel tried to turn Scemma into Jott 2.0, with Emma taking on Jean's roles, the relationship became bland, and enthusiasm for it declined.

If Marvel ever gets around to putting Scott and Jean back together, they need to reiterate exactly what it is they see in each other and WHY they love each other. How they complement each other. It wouldn't hurt to show them having fun once in a while, either.

They love each other because she was the only girl and he was the main guy.

[wano]

They love each other because she was the only girl and he was the main guy.

If you wanna go a step further you could say they love each other because the writer said so, just like with every character in fiction, nice argument

[Disciple of Redd]

If you wanna go a step further you could say they love each other because the writer said so, just like with every character in fiction, nice argument

Well yes, of course, but that's also the in-story reason.