The Rectangle: Jean/Scott/Emma/Logan Discussion

[Hizashi]

I really don't remember many characters calling out Scott, wolverine and lorna are the only ones I remember.

If Scott was so hated by readers he wouldn't be the major leader for one decade. he is much more liked than hated by a really wide margin

Scott simply has some very loyal fans.

[spirit2011]

Scott simply has some very loyal fans.

He has, but it would never keep him on X-men leadership for so long. And make Marvel return him so quickly

[Hizashi]

alright many characters called out Scott.

Do you think Scott would be viable as major character everywhere with a like/dislike of 55/45? That just isn't possible for the level of importance he had for a decade, where he was front and center everywhere

In professional wrestling, when a character or narrative is being pushed down the audience' collective throat, the audience rejects it. That's how characters and narratives that were meant to be unpopular are ultimately popular, or vice versa, despite the creative teams in charge. The harder Marvel pushes this bogus narrative about the horrible, unforgivable things that Scott did, the more dug in his fans will be and more and more readers will side with him (even if they aren't necessarily his fans). That's an example of a negative narrative backfiring on them. Captain Marvel failing to catch on in the books is the opposite example.

[spirit2011]

In professional wrestling, when a character or narrative is being pushed down the audience' collective throat, the audience rejects it. That's how characters and narratives that were meant to be unpopular are ultimately popular, or vice versa, despite the creative teams in charge. The harder Marvel pushes this bogus narrative about the horrible, unforgivable things that Scott did, the more dug in his fans will be and more and more readers will side with him (even if they aren't necessarily his fans). That's an example of a negative narrative backfiring on them. Captain Marvel failing to catch on in the books is the opposite example.

too bad because Captain Marvel is much cooler than Scott. But is not for the average comic book Floppies audience.

Marvel trying to destroy Scott credibility could work for the last 4 years narrative, but the truth that he was always beloved and after Morrison run he became the star of the books and you can't do that with a 55/45

[Ulfhammer]

The rectangle is silly because it attempts to equate Scott and Jean's relationship with Scott and Emma's and whatever was going on with Jean and Logan. Jean and Logan never got together. Emma and Scott went down in flames and never got past the specter of Jean. Let's focus on the relationship at the center of all this, Scott and Jean.

The best argument for why they shouldn't be together is that nearly everything negative in their adult personal lives can be laid at the feet of the other. That's a compelling argument. The counter argument that is nearly always overlooked is that nearly everything positive in their adult personal lives was because of the other. Actually the positive wildly outweighs the negative by a wide margin in both scope and scale. It's impossible to deny that they made each other happy, for quite some time and there's no reason to expect that can't be repeated in the future.

When you find someone who does that, you don't toss them out the airlock. You keep trying because it's worth it. Relationships are a mixed bag of good times and bad and comics turns that up to 11. IRL it would be an over the top fight because someone was fed up about the laundry or the state of the toilet seat. In comics it's a telepathic affair or a midnight booty call. IRL it would be getting surprise flowers delivered from your lover. In the comics it's scouring the Earth for your lover everyone says is dead, or fighting impossible odds because your girlfriend ate a star. None of it matters because at the end of the day, you'd rather be with them then without them. I don't recall a single time in either characters history where we could honestly say they were definitely willing to give up on each other. Given all that's happened, that's a bedrock relationship. There is no rectangle. There never was. Logan knew it and said it. Emma knew it and said it. It's time we all accepted it.

[anyajenkins]

The ‘Scott is bad’ bit was only since IvX and that pretty much over now. Under Bendis and during Shism, it was Scott is the ‘cool edgy rebel’ bad. He had years of Scott is the ‘greatest leader ever.’ Beast was the only one really critical and he was painted in a very bad light over it. Rachel was really the only one to call him out over Emma, anyone else who said anything got over it really quickly.

[spirit2011]

The ‘Scott is bad’ bit was only since IvX and that pretty much over now. Under Bendis and during Shism, it was Scott is the ‘cool edgy rebel’ bad. He had years of Scott is the ‘greatest leader ever.’ Beast was the only one really critical and he was painted in a very bad light over it. Rachel was really the only one to call him out over Emma, anyone else who said anything got over it really quickly.

Beast is even more hated than Cyclops ever was LOL

[TheCape]

Beast is even more hated than Cyclops ever was LOL

To be honest, there is good reason for that. Is kind of impresive that there are no Beast fans in these forums.

[TheCape]

The rectangle is silly because it attempts to equate Scott and Jean's relationship with Scott and Emma's and whatever was going on with Jean and Logan. Jean and Logan never got together. Emma and Scott went down in flames and never got past the specter of Jean. Let's focus on the relationship at the center of all this, Scott and Jean.

The best argument for why they shouldn't be together is that nearly everything negative in their adult personal lives can be laid at the feet of the other. That's a compelling argument. The counter argument that is nearly always overlooked is that nearly everything positive in their adult personal lives was because of the other. Actually the positive wildly outweighs the negative by a wide margin in both scope and scale. It's impossible to deny that they made each other happy, for quite some time and there's no reason to expect that can't be repeated in the future.

When you find someone who does that, you don't toss them out the airlock. You keep trying because it's worth it. Relationships are a mixed bag of good times and bad and comics turns that up to 11. IRL it would be an over the top fight because someone was fed up about the laundry or the state of the toilet seat. In comics it's a telepathic affair or a midnight booty call. IRL it would be getting surprise flowers delivered from your lover. In the comics it's scouring the Earth for your lover everyone says is dead, or fighting impossible odds because your girlfriend ate a star. None of it matters because at the end of the day, you'd rather be with them then without them. I don't recall a single time in either characters history where we could honestly say they were definitely willing to give up on each other. Given all that's happened, that's a bedrock relationship. There is no rectangle. There never was. Logan knew it and said it. Emma knew it and said it. It's time we all accepted it.

I can agreed with this.

[TheDeadSpace]

The rectangle is silly because it attempts to equate Scott and Jean's relationship with Scott and Emma's and whatever was going on with Jean and Logan. Jean and Logan never got together. Emma and Scott went down in flames and never got past the specter of Jean. Let's focus on the relationship at the center of all this, Scott and Jean.

The best argument for why they shouldn't be together is that nearly everything negative in their adult personal lives can be laid at the feet of the other. That's a compelling argument. The counter argument that is nearly always overlooked is that nearly everything positive in their adult personal lives was because of the other. Actually the positive wildly outweighs the negative by a wide margin in both scope and scale. It's impossible to deny that they made each other happy, for quite some time and there's no reason to expect that can't be repeated in the future.

When you find someone who does that, you don't toss them out the airlock. You keep trying because it's worth it. Relationships are a mixed bag of good times and bad and comics turns that up to 11. IRL it would be an over the top fight because someone was fed up about the laundry or the state of the toilet seat. In comics it's a telepathic affair or a midnight booty call. IRL it would be getting surprise flowers delivered from your lover. In the comics it's scouring the Earth for your lover everyone says is dead, or fighting impossible odds because your girlfriend ate a star. None of it matters because at the end of the day, you'd rather be with them then without them. I don't recall a single time in either characters history where we could honestly say they were definitely willing to give up on each other. Given all that's happened, that's a bedrock relationship. There is no rectangle. There never was. Logan knew it and said it. Emma knew it and said it. It's time we all accepted it.

Well said. I'm not sure what else I'd add either.

[PrezValentine]

The ‘Scott is bad’ bit was only since IvX and that pretty much over now. Under Bendis and during Shism, it was Scott is the ‘cool edgy rebel’ bad. He had years of Scott is the ‘greatest leader ever.’ Beast was the only one really critical and he was painted in a very bad light over it. Rachel was really the only one to call him out over Emma, anyone else who said anything got over it really quickly.

After Schism, Gillen wrote Scott trying to turn him into a villain, though. Aaron actually did his best to make Scott sound like the worst creature ever born. The whole basis for Bendis' run was that the X-Men sat on their asses so long, Scott took the mission of saving mutants on his hands, and that is what made Hank bring the O5 to the present. But, somehow, Scott was still wrong. Not to mention the speech that the X-Men fans adopted that Cyclops' actions justified violence against mutants LMAO

It's also important to remember that Marvel NOW! flagship book was Uncanny Avengers, which had iconic moments such as:
- Call me Alex
- Wanda saying Cyclops was wrong because there was no need for more mutant births
- Havok disowning his brother at every other turn

All stuff built specifically to paint Scott as the villain. So no, it's not that he was the "cool edgy rebel". It's just that people still liked him and Brevoort and Aaron weren't happy about it.

[DianaWw]

Beast is even more hated than Cyclops ever was LOL

Well not true, I love hating him.

[spirit2011]

Absolutely true, but except when they took it to eleven (like they recently did, I mean thinking of Jean while in bed with Emma? FFS Marvel) it read to me like the understandable feelings of a widowed man who genuinely loved his wife. There were unresolved issues between them and that meant any real sense of closure was always out of reach. That doesn't even take into account the fact that they live in a universe where death is more like rehab, that the X-Men were all expecting Jean to return, and that all of that loomed over Scott.

Scott: "let me have some fun while my only one true love Jean isn't back hehe"
he got it easy, too easy

[DianaWw]

Well Mr. Summers will be going to Emma for help soon. How do you all think it will go?

I say a kissed and let them move on with their lives. Friendly ex's because we all know Logan is not going to let her have Scott this time around.

[Ulfhammer]

too bad because Captain Marvel is much cooler than Scott. But is not for the average comic book Floppies audience.

Carol Danvers? She hasn't been interesting since she was in Rogue's head. I think her and Logan had a certain something. That said, her modern incarnation's sales are consistently floating at the cancellation cut off for a reason. It's not like people who buy comics are some kind of different species of human than everyone else. She's just not compelling, mostly because Marvel never puts her in a position to lose. Jean, Scott, Logan, Kurt, Ororo. These characters are loved because they've lost as much as they've won, but they keep fighting because they believe in something greater than themselves. The feel of the Capt Marvel comics that I've read make it clear Marvel just wants her to win at everything and be amazing at everything and never be taken down a notch. Maybe if they give her to someone who's willing to take some risks with her, she can become something. I'm not holding my breath.