The Rectangle: Jean/Scott/Emma/Logan Discussion

[jollygoldfish]

The corsets thing is all about sex. It's reiterated numerous times. Apocalypse unearthed dark desires and brought it to the fore front. He even says it in the scene he is embarrassed to tell Jean in case she hates him for having those thoughts. And he reiterates this to wolverine who said Jean would have liked it.



Therapy is not mentioned at all in that scene he just wanted someone to talk to and was sex starved. That's from wolverines a man has got needs comment earlier on in the run



Well then you should know that rule one is to refer you on to someone else to deal with your health issues. Scott didn't think it was therapy he doesn't mention that at all. Emma has insight as a sex therapist much like a doctor would have insight. But they would not be acting in a professional capacity it would violate medical council rules to act that way for a friend or family member



No she was being sardonic. The problem with Scott and Jeans relationship according to Morrison's run was the expectations that came from fans and other people. It's a breaking the fourth wall comment which aligns with KTs comments of the relationship being put on a pedestal. Thus Cyclops could not cope with those expectations because he was having these dirty thoughts about certain things he wanted to try. He perceived Jean as so perfect and pure that she would never want to try anal to be crass. But wolverine said she would have liked it

So Emma's comments are sadonic because she knows their marriage is flawed and not what everyone perceives. She knows Jean isn't pure she knows what Wolverine knows. She knows that Scott lies next to her and doesn't touch her. hen why their pedestal marriage isn't what we perceive it to be

The one little throwaway line in the whole verbal diarrhea is what you think that whole scene is about? The problem isn't the thoughts. The problem is he can't tell Jean about them. He thinks Emma can help. That's why he goes to her. Not about the thoughts or why he is having them or that he wants to share them with Emma.

"Therapy" isn't mentioned there but it was in their 2nd talk I believe while he was flying the plane.

Refer someone? As if he would let staff deal with us lol. After a certain level, the best either works for you, is a friend, or works for a friend.

Emma wouldn't refer Scott to a therapist if she thought she could do better or wanted to use that to rape him. She never referred any of the Xmen either when she was acting as their therapist.

Emma wasn't being sardonic. Jean had just ripped through her mind. She said she saw everything and couldn't hide. What would be the point of hiding the truth then?

[ExodusCloak]

The one little throwaway line in the whole verbal diarrhea is what you think that whole scene is about? The problem isn't the thoughts. The problem is he can't tell Jean about them. He thinks Emma can help. That's why he goes to her. Not about the thoughts or why he is having them or that he wants to share them with Emma.

Why can't he tell Jean because he is embarrassed of those thoughts. So yes it's reiterated several times that it's about sex.

"Therapy" isn't mentioned there but it was in their 2nd talk I believe while he was flying the plane.

Yup because he came to talk to her as a friend.

Refer someone? As if he would let staff deal with us lol. After a certain level, the best either works for you, is a friend, or works for a friend.

No as in refer you to another doctor. No as per medical council guidelines you should not be treating friends or family members. There's no at a certain level. Even as a consultant you also should not be writing scripts for people you know in real life. That's against council guidelines too. It's fairly bkack and white about that.

Emma wouldn't refer Scott to a therapist if she thought she could do better or wanted to use that to rape him. She never referred any of the Xmen either when she was acting as their therapist.

No Emma was not actually in that capacity she was acting as a capacity as a friend. Because one Cyclops didn't need a therapist as pointed out when Jean went through her head. There was no evik entity. Those dirty thoughts were his.

Emma wasn't being sardonic. Jean had just ripped through her mind. She said she saw everything and couldn't hide. What would be the point of hiding the truth then?

She was being sardonic. She wasn't hiding anything she stated several things in that sentence that she knew wasn't true. And even Logan knew wasn't true. She's not hiding anything there. She's being sardonic I'll give you an example "oh I know how they're such a perfect couple and compliment each other and I'm so awful and mean etc but

None of that is true. It's how the outsider perceives the characters but they all know that that's simply not true. The marriage is not what people perceive it to be. Emma has more going on then jsut and icy exterior and Jean has more going on then jsut trying to be a saint

Thirdly to address the gaping elephant in the room if Cyclops did not go to Emma about sex then why was her insight as a sex therapist mentioned at all? Why did she not refer to herself as a marraige or couple's counsellor? They're not synonymous with each other and usually a sex therapist would refer the couple on to marriage and couple counseling. A sex therapist purely helps the couple discuss sex.
Cyclops obviously was coming her to discuss sex but as stated before it was only in the capacity as her friend. He sought her following their conversation in HK as they became friendly. No one referred him. He did not know about her 'credentials' when he sought her either.

[Peanutsinspace]

Why can't he tell Jean because he is embarrassed of those thoughts. So yes it's reiterated several times that it's about sex.



Yup because he came to talk to her as a friend.



No as in refer you to another doctor. No as per medical council guidelines you should not be treating friends or family members. There's no at a certain level. Even as a consultant you also should not be writing scripts for people you know in real life. That's against council guidelines too. It's fairly bkack and white about that.



No Emma was not actually in that capacity she was acting as a capacity as a friend. Because one Cyclops didn't need a therapist as pointed out when Jean went through her head. There was no evik entity. Those dirty thoughts were his.



She was being sardonic. She wasn't hiding anything she stated several things in that sentence that she knew wasn't true. And even Logan knew wasn't true. She's not hiding anything there. She's being sardonic I'll give you an example "oh I know how they're such a perfect couple and compliment each other and I'm so awful and mean etc but

None of that is true. It's how the outsider perceives the characters but they all know that that's simply not true. The marriage is not what people perceive it to be. Emma has more going on then jsut and icy exterior and Jean has more going on then jsut trying to be a saint

Oh my god, you must be an Olympic level gymnast with all the flips you're doing.

He didn't go to Emma about strictly sex. In issue #131 which is their first session, taking place after he sees her in #129; he tells Emma that he needs marriage guidance and notice the word, guidance is something a therapist offers. He wants to be able to tell his wife that he's changed but he needs help doing that, it's why he seeks Emma out for help.

Which is why she wasn't just acting as his friend. If Scott went to talk to her as a friend, as you're constantly claiming, then why did he ask Emma if what they were doing was still telepathic therapy? She brought it up after all by saying she was a certified sex therapist and if she were merely acting as his friend in the matter, then why did she never correct him when he asked her what it was they were doing? As a therapist/friend, one would make the distinction in ones own personal life if they were giving advice to someone else i.e. "I'm saying this not as a therapist, but as your friend..." Scott believes what it is they're doing is therapy, he believes Emma is going to help him sort things out in his life so he can talk about it with Jean. That's all there is.




I'm now going to sit back and wait for the amazing floor show you're about to do to explain how the above isn't what it actually means.




*For heavens sake even Marvel called it therapy.

[ExodusCloak]

Oh my god, you must be an Olympic level gymnast with all the flips you're doing.

He didn't go to Emma about strictly sex. In issue #131 which is their first session, taking place after he sees her in #129; he tells Emma that he needs marriage guidance and notice the word, guidance is something a therapist offers. He wants to be able to tell his wife that he's changed but he needs help doing that, it's why he seeks Emma out for help.

No the first time they chat is in a dark room. Not the scene you're taking about. Secondly she doesn't say he needs marriage guidance. She says you came to auntie Emma. A sex therapist does not do marriage guidance FYI they do sex. He came to her for sex and she was acting in the capacity of a friend. The example he gives with the corsets and the embarrassment regarding these thoughts is right there. You're doing gymnastics blantantly ignoring it as it does not fit your narrative. Has issues with sex, is embarrassed to tell wife of sexual interests.

Which is why she wasn't just acting as his friend. If Scott went to talk to her as a friend, as you're constantly claiming, then why did he ask Emma if what they were doing was still telepathic therapy? She brought it up after all by saying she was a certified sex therapist and if she were merely acting as his friend in the matter, then why did she never correct him when he asked her what it was they were doing? As a therapist/friend, one would make the distinction in ones own personal life if they were giving advice to someone else i.e. "I'm saying this not as a therapist, but as your friend..." Scott believes what it is they're doing is therapy, he believes Emma is going to help him sort things out in his life so he can talk about it with Jean. That's all there is.

To answer your first point he did not know she had those credentials in the first place when he sought her out. So that point is moot. Emma is the one who brings that she is a sex therapist not Scott. And sex therapists don't do marriage counseling. That's separate. Scott went to her to talk sex.

One doesn't need to make that distinction with limited panel time.

Thirdly, in issue 138 it's shown that Cyclops is going to her for the sexual experience "mmmhhhrr" when Jean finds them. You're fast forwading and ignoring why initially went to her in the first place. If he knew she was a sex therapist she would not have had to mention it for the first time in that issue you're referencing

[ExodusCloak]

Oh my god, you must be an Olympic level gymnast with all the flips you're doing.

He didn't go to Emma about strictly sex. In issue #131 which is their first session, taking place after he sees her in #129; he tells Emma that he needs marriage guidance and notice the word, guidance is something a therapist offers. He wants to be able to tell his wife that he's changed but he needs help doing that, it's why he seeks Emma out for help.

Which is why she wasn't just acting as his friend. If Scott went to talk to her as a friend, as you're constantly claiming, then why did he ask Emma if what they were doing was still telepathic therapy? She brought it up after all by saying she was a certified sex therapist and if she were merely acting as his friend in the matter, then why did she never correct him when he asked her what it was they were doing? As a therapist/friend, one would make the distinction in ones own personal life if they were giving advice to someone else i.e. "I'm saying this not as a therapist, but as your friend..." Scott believes what it is they're doing is therapy, he believes Emma is going to help him sort things out in his life so he can talk about it with Jean. That's all there is.




I'm now going to sit back and wait for the amazing floor show you're about to do to explain how the above isn't what it actually means.




*For heavens sake even Marvel called it therapy.

Solicits aren't canon. Marvel call it an affair several times and Cyclops takes equal responsibility for it several times. Its in the recap pages of 139, 140, 141 I can list you the words telepathic affair at least four times within the issue. It's even called an affair within the issue several times
I can even show you scans of several characters calling then out on the affair

He want suffering from psychosis or depressed his presenting complaint was he wanted to try new sexual fantasies and he didn't think his wife would approve.

It was a an affair from the get go that's how marvel perceive it. And every writer that has come after. It may not fit your narrative about 'rape' though which is why you don't agree with it

Cyclops was s consenting adult who went to Emma for advice on sex. Not marriage. And even the reiteration of her insight being a sex therapist should ring highlight that. He was a consenting adult. This just wreaks of misongy trying to put all the blame on the woman. While trying to absolve both Cyclops and Jean for the failure of their marriage

[Disciple of Redd]

Can we acknowledge that Cyke fans have now decided that Emma Frost raped Cyclops?

Like...wow. Just flying over that shark.

[wano]

Can we acknowledge that Cyke fans have now decided that Emma Frost raped Cyclops?

Like...wow. Just flying over that shark.

Don't include me on that

[LoganAlpha30X33]

What issue was this little trip through the fantasies?

I don't remember the exact issue but if my memory serves Logan is sitting on his motorcycle and Jean comes to see him and he tells her to get out of his fantasies and she's smirking at him, it was before the Shi'ar attacked the mansion and I think that it was the same issue where Scott is watching them from the window and then Emma is behind him...

Besides if people need more proof just go back to after Magneto pulled the adamantium from Logan and the interactions between Jean and Logan...good for both...

[TheCape]

I don't remember the exact issue but if my memory serves Logan is sitting on his motorcycle and Jean comes to see him and he tells her to get out of his fantasies and she's smirking at him, it was before the Shi'ar attacked the mansion and I think that it was the same issue where Scott is watching them from the window and then Emma is behind him...

Besides if people need more proof just go back to after Magneto pulled the adamantium from Logan and the interactions between Jean and Logan...good for both...

It was in New X-Men #118, when Jean needs him to save a new mutant that was starting to manifest her powers, but i always took it as both joking and making friendly banter considering that he rejected her 2 issues before that.

Guest that other people feel differently.

[TheCape]

Don't include me on that

I'm really indecesive about to be honest. Both sides had a point from where i'm standing.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

It was in New X-Men #118, when Jean needs him to save a new mutant that was starting to manifest her piwers, but i always took it as both joking, considering that he rejected her 2 issues before that.

I took it more that Jean was trying to lighten the mood a bit but by Logan's response she actually was in his mind and didn't seem upset or offended by what she saw, I think that Logan was in love with her but wasn't wanting to be the cause of Jean/Scott ending, at least not directly...he didn't want Jean to cheat on Scott with him...now that they're both single and Scott is dead however...

[Peanutsinspace]

Solicits aren't canon. Marvel call it an affair several times and Cyclops takes equal responsibility for it several times. Its in the recap pages of 139, 140, 141 I can list you the words telepathic affair at least four times within the issue. It's even called an affair within the issue several times
I can even show you scans of several characters calling then out on the affair

He want suffering from psychosis or depressed his presenting complaint was he wanted to try new sexual fantasies and he didn't think his wife would approve.

It was a an affair from the get go that's how marvel perceive it. And every writer that has come after. It may not fit your narrative about 'rape' though which is why you don't agree with it

Cyclops was s consenting adult who went to Emma for advice on sex. Not marriage. And even the reiteration of her insight being a sex therapist should ring highlight that. He was a consenting adult. This just wreaks of misongy trying to put all the blame on the woman. While trying to absolve both Cyclops and Jean for the failure of their marriage

And there it is!

I'm not talking about the first time they talk. That was when he asked her for help. I'm talking about their first session which is #131 and you're right, she doesn't say it, he does. I'm talking about #131 but if we're going to discuss #129 when Scott tells Emma that he can't talk to Jean about the stuff that matters most, you're honestly saying the entire topic is that it's about sex. The stuff that matters most is that Scott is embarrassed to talk to his wife about sex. Okay.

Also, FYI some sex therapists do indeed do couples/marital counseling as part of the sex therapy. Just putting that out there.

#131 Scott doesn't tell Emma he's there to talk sex. He tells her he needs marriage guidance which is why he inquires if what they're doing is still telepathic therapy or not.



Yes, by issue #138 it was clearly no longer therapy! I didn't fast forward anything, #131 is the next time Emma and Scott 'meet' and discuss his issues. There's no fast forwarding when it's clear as day why he went to her in the first place. #131 tells us why. Scott wanted marriage guidance.

Solicits may not be canon but they're much closer than calling it "just two friends talking." It was therapy. I know you'll never admit it, but deep down, I believe you know it too but you can't bring yourself to admit it and that's...'cool' I guess.

I'm not arguing the affair, that is what it is. My only argument here is that it started as therapy and you must have me mistaken for someone else because I never said it was rape so you can miss me with that little allegation. It's no secret some writers call it an affair but it stemmed from "telepathic therapy sessions" that's all I've ever been arguing.

Let's touch on this claim of misogyny as well. Please show me where I said that it was all Emma's fault or where I even attacked her at all. You're losing your grip because I never said anything about any of that. Unless this is part of your argument that you're just tacking onto the end. I have absolutely no problem admitting that Jean was in the wrong, Scott was in the wrong and all three of them were messy as hell. I've never placed all the blame at Emma's feet. I have more sense than that.

[TheCape]

I took it more that Jean was trying to lighten the mood a bit but by Logan's response she actually was in his mind and didn't seem upset or offended by what she saw, I think that Logan was in love with her but wasn't wanting to be the cause of Jean/Scott ending, at least not directly...he didn't want Jean to cheat on Scott with him...now that they're both single and Scott is dead however...

He was still in love with her, but he knew that it wasn't going to work out, Logan pretty much stopped his dating life after Mariko's death and stopped pursuing Jean post-Fattal Attractions, maybe beofre that to be honest (pitty that no one told Casey about that ), honestly i don't know what Marvel is going to do with then, maybe they will do it, maybe not, but frankly i hope that if they go there (wicth is not something that i want frabkly) they put more effort in their writting, pairing Wolverine with an stablished heroine is tricky anf their shared story in the 616 hasn't convinced me about if they could be a good macth.

[ExodusCloak]

And there it is!

I'm not talking about the first time they talk. That was when he asked her for help. I'm talking about their first session which is #131 and you're right, she doesn't say it, he does. I'm talking about #131 but if we're going to discuss #129 when Scott tells Emma that he can't talk to Jean about the stuff that matters most, you're honestly saying the entire topic is that it's about sex. The stuff that matters most is that Scott is embarrassed to talk to his wife about sex. Okay.

Also, FYI some sex therapists do indeed do couples/marital counseling as part of the sex therapy. Just putting that out there.

#131 Scott doesn't tell Emma he's there to talk sex. He tells her he needs marriage guidance which is why he inquires if what they're doing is still telepathic therapy or not.

Yes, by issue #138 it was clearly no longer therapy! I didn't fast forward anything, #131 is the next time Emma and Scott 'meet' and discuss his issues. There's no fast forwarding when it's clear as day why he went to her in the first place. #131 tells us why. Scott wanted marriage guidance.

Solicits may not be canon but they're much closer than calling it "just two friends talking." It was therapy. I know you'll never admit it, but deep down, I believe you know it too but you can't bring yourself to admit it and that's...'cool' I guess.

I'm not arguing the affair, that is what it is. My only argument here is that it started as therapy and you must have me mistaken for someone else because I never said it was rape so you can miss me with that little allegation. It's no secret some writers call it an affair but it stemmed from "telepathic therapy sessions" that's all I've ever been arguing.

The first time they talk is the "first session" yes it's about sex. You continually cite that she is a sex therapist. What is the role of sex therapist. Hint it is in the name.

No they don't they refer on to a couple's counsellor and marriage counselor. That's beyond their scope of practice.

Solicits aren't canon. In any case the argument that's been going around this thread for pages is about rape. If you acknowledge that it was an affair and not rape there's not much further to add

[stormphoenix]

When I read the title of the thread immediately I thought..spoilers:

”that’s an orgy”

end of spoilers