The Rectangle: Jean/Scott/Emma/Logan Discussion

[Glio]

Zac said that Yes on a reddit AMA

Zac can not settle a philosophical debate on an AMA.

[spirit2011]

Zac can not settle a philosophical debate on an AMA.

what?

He just say that we should consider the characters the same on AOXM and 616.

[Ulfhammer]

Only when it suits some. Otherwise it was straightforward. Lol

As I exampled above, when Creed got inverted, plenty did not except that change, noting it was still the sane person who was a cannibal, rapist, & serial killer. Despite the fact that the inverted Creed (when properly written) would never fo those things. Then when Bunn started the Monet pairing, it really set some off. Because she shouldn't be with a rapist, even though she wasn't.

But never once was it argued that inverted Creed wasn't the same 616 Creed.

Now, under similar circumstances, these 616 characters are experiencing a different life, but they aren't the same characters, and nothing about them connects or should count. Despite some stll counting other Creed's sins on his inverted self. Nobody counted that as 2 different characters. Lol

It's like the age old Buffy debate. Is Angelus a whole separate entity, or just evil Angel.

This would make sense if my argument was based on AoXM not mattering. It wasn't. If it helps, I'll duplicate the applicable part of my last post here:

I think the fundamental difference between our positions is that you're coming from the POV that actions in this AU matter to the 616 characters. That's true if the twitter bait is to be believed and I'm not contesting that. My position is based on the fact that no one can take character actions in this AU as reflective of what the actual 616 character would choose if they had their memories intact.

[Ulfhammer]

what?

He just say that we should consider the characters the same on AOXM and 616.

Complex ideas like we're discussing don't translate to twitter very well. Also, writers tend to avoid explaining themselves because a lot of the time their reasoning is based on ideas that don't stand up to scrutiny. Other times, they'd prefer fans come to their own conclusions rather than spelling it out

[Ulfhammer]

Well, the other thing to consider, is the fact that we don't know what AoXm actually is yet. It may be the 616 characters, but they may be in an alternate reality, hence it could still be an AU. I don't know how this made the conversation appear hostile.

Seemed like a pretty normal exchange to me. Yes, some people will get passive aggressive and petty about it, but these kinds of intellectual exchanges are part of why I'm here. Sometimes I even learn something because the purpose is to exchange points of view, not constantly defend every opinion you have like your life depends on it. When someone nails me with a subtle point of logic I haven't considered, or correct me on my memory of canon, that's pure gold. The momentary feeling of "how did I miss that" is quickly overwhelmed by the rush of new ideas and possibilities that come from really listening to where others are coming from.

Havok's owned me a few times and I've learned something each time. If it appears hostile, I think that's simply down to two intelligent people engaging in a lively debate. I hope that feelings mutual.

[TheDeadSpace]

Seemed like a pretty normal exchange to me. Yes, some people will get passive aggressive and petty about it, but these kinds of intellectual exchanges are part of why I'm here. Sometimes I even learn something because the purpose is to exchange points of view, not constantly defend every opinion you have like your life depends on it. When someone nails me with a subtle point of logic I haven't considered, or correct me on my memory of canon, that's pure gold. The momentary feeling of "how did I miss that" is quickly overwhelmed by the rush of new ideas and possibilities that come from really listening to where others are coming from.

Havok's owned me a few times and I've learned something each time. If it appears hostile, I think that's simply down to two intelligent people engaging in a lively debate. I hope that feelings mutual.

Hopefully that's the case. When a discussion is entirely just an exchange of ideas/viewpoints, it's great and it's one of the reasons I'm on the thread as well. It's what it sometimes can become that I'm not a fan of. With text, it's a bit hard to tell the tone the author is trying to convey. I guess I still need to get use to the tones still.

[spirit2011]

Complex ideas like we're discussing don't translate to twitter very well. Also, writers tend to avoid explaining themselves because a lot of the time their reasoning is based on ideas that don't stand up to scrutiny. Other times, they'd prefer fans come to their own conclusions rather than spelling it out

I agree partially with Zac Thompson. They may have the core of the characters but the world is different and many agree with things they would never do on 616.

[v_jeovanne]

Well, the other thing to consider, is the fact that we don't know what AoXm actually is yet. It may be the 616 characters, but they may be in an alternate reality, hence it could still be an AU. I don't know how this made the conversation appear hostile.



Reminds me of the nature v. nurture debate that's still ongoing.

someone had mentioned that it was a virtual world.

[Havok83]

someone had mentioned that it was a virtual world.

To me its like a hyper advanced danger room setting and massive brainwashing with Nate at the control panel

[v_jeovanne]

To me its like a hyper advanced danger room setting and massive brainwashing with Nate at the control panel

According to the theory, it is Nate's world but he does not have control.

[TheDeadSpace]

According to the theory, it is Nate's world but he does not have control.

Makes some sense, but where would it be located?

[Havok83]

Makes some sense, but where would it be located?

Legions head? I think Nate used Legion's reality warping powers to create AoX and the new characters such as Unveil and Moneta are Legion personalities

[Hizashi]

So the AoXM has a "history" but did the 616 abductees actually "live" that history or do they just remember it? Is it a complete universe that can continue to exist without Nate even though he created it or will it fall apart if/when he dies? Why was there a "Cyclops", "Wolverine", "Hope", etc. if the 616 versions weren't abducted? Are they dead because they weren't brought in with everyone else? Why did they need to "exist" if it's Nate's world? To line up closely to the 616 universe?

[Havok83]

So the AoXM has a "history" but did the 616 abductees actually "live" that history or do they just remember it? Is it a complete universe that can continue to exist without Nate even though he created it or will it fall apart if/when he dies? Why was there a "Cyclops", "Wolverine", "Hope", etc. if the 616 versions weren't abducted? Are they dead because they weren't brought in with everyone else? Why did they need to "exist" if it's Nate's world? To line up closely to the 616 universe?

Here's my take. The 616 characters didnt live the history. Their experiences begin circa the Alpha issue but they've been implanted with false memories so they arent aware that they have just been transported there. As we saw in the Alpha issue, even these AoX experiences are erased and rewritten through more brainwashing

Cyclops, Wolverine and Hope existed and are dead bc they weren't abducted. They existed bc much of AoX's "past" does mirror 616 with diversions. We see that through pictures which depicted 616 moments but with alternate characters inserted.

Wow, this thread has really gone off topic and this would probably be best for the AoX general discussion thread

[PrezValentine]

Glob mentions that everyone feels like it's been years, but it was only a few months. Let's say 3. The history of AoXM is a simulation, which is why whatever the characters did there in the time-frame they've been gone from 616 is real, but what they remember from that universe before that is not.

Bishop and Jean: that's real. If they've been doing it in the last 3 months, then it's all real.
Colossus fighting alongside the Messiah Team against Stryfe is not real, because it would have happened on a time-frame the X-Men didn't live, since they couldn't. It's quite simple after you grasp that.