The Rectangle: Jean/Scott/Emma/Logan Discussion

[Hizashi]

It's not like it is going to happen anyway. Also I htink he would do a nice pair with Jean


It wasn't even good for him, because he went to Emma for help

you mean Claremont. Morrison killed Jean, there isn't after life stories to tell

Fans liking or not Cyclops after Jean's dead, he got all the spotlight and storylines.

Maybe it won’t, but if Jean gets paired up with someone else, the deciding factor shouldn’t be how bad it would make Scott look or feel. Come on.

I wonder who would be helped by having words put in their mouths or their concerns being waved away.

The Phoenix egg? The other hosts? The power to perform multiversal surgery? Morrison left the door open for Jean; Marvel chose not to open it.

Her presence wouldn’t necessarily have changed anything, and that matters.

[Abbz_A]

Logan has certain level of blame, i can't deny it, but as far i'm concerned he made out for those mistakes and made his decision quite clear.

As for Jean, well this is my personal view, but i always thougth that she saw Logan as a wounded animal and the she confused emphathy with attraction, hence the kisses, it doesn't justified it for sure and it was wrong for both parties but is what it is, for me Logan eventually realized that.

And i agreed, both Scott and Jean failed at it.

Oh wow! I actually never thought of it. Could be true. But she was in a respectful relationship, their “attraction” lasted too long.
But yea ... Logan did change at the end.
And honestly I don’t want Jogan .. cz he dated Oro n she’s Jeans bff. Jean would b breaking girls code.

[lancer]

Morrison's stated reason for splitting up Scott and Jean:

"[DeFalco] In your mind, did Scott and Emma commit adultery?

[Morrison] The way I saw it was that Jean and Scott had become remote. For me, the great emotional moment for Scott and Jean was when they ran out to die together on the moon during the Phoenix Saga. After Jean died, Scott ended up with a lot of other women. Scott was very attractive to women even though he didn't know it and I wanted to play around with that. Since he was becoming emotionally remote from Jean, because she was becoming more and more godlike, it just seemed like he would naturally fall into the arms of someone more emotionally connected, which Emma actually was. Yes, it was a kind of adultery, but at the same time Jean wasn't being his wife any more. I just felt that the spark between them had died out and it was time to give Scott someone else."

--from Comics Creators on X-Men (2006) by Tom DeFalco, p. 235

You see, I don't think this matches what he wrote. We didn't see hind nor hare of Phoenix until issue 120. All the marital problems are in place by then. As far as Jean not being a wife, IMO, Casey's first issue and the bedroom conversation in NXM 116 make it clear that Jean has been trying since he came back. That is 5 months. He has shut her out emotionally and physically for 5 months. I think pretty clear from the Logan Jean conversation in 117.

Hong Kong was in the annual, I believe set between 117 and 118. Again, the problems were all there before Phoenix. I suppose you could argue that Jean should have continued to try and try and try rather than leave with Xavier, That's not to the late 120s, though.

Before that, we had Jean asking him if he had slept with Emma in Hong Kong. I wouldn't imagine that no she kept me up all night would inspire much confidence. The scene ended with that. The one issue I had a bit of a problem with Jean was her pretty shutting Scott down. However, that conversation had nothing to do with their marriage. It was about the school going public

As I've said a bunch of times, Morrison just wouldn't give them any panel time together. That's how this thing lasted 40 issues. How can there be any resolution when the couple never speak. In my mind, 3 real conversations in 40 issues. The one in the bedroom. The one where Jean shut him down and her dying. The one about Hong Kong was very brief just like the one in the issue where Jean caught Scott and Emma. It was all Jean/Emma. Scott saying, read my mind, she does and he storms out of the mansion is not my idea of a real conversation. The death convo wasn't exactly lengthy either. But at least a few lines.

Obviously, Scott had been traumatized. Had sympathy for him in shutting Jean down. Until he started an affair with another. Yes, that was not his intent. Personally, I found it incredibly contrived plotting for him to go to Emma Frost, of all people, with his marital. That said, he let it turn into an affair. That is when my sympathy went out the window.

Bottom line, I don't see it as simple as Jean was not a wife anymore. He wouldn't let her be one. Again, I do think it can be reasonably argued that if she loved him as much as I always thought she did that she should not stop trying to get through to him. I don't find that as unfair criticism. And the kiss with Logan. That is on her no matter how long he shut her out. You want to be free to do that you separate or divorce. I've suggested that is how it should have been done IF you are determined to do Scemma. Jean and Scott separate early in the run. Slowly work toward Scott and Emma.

Neither party is completely innocent. However, my opinion on a kiss vs an ongoing psychic affair with a world class telepath remains the same as it's always been. That's why I give Scott the lion's share of the blame.

[TheCape]

Oh wow! I actually never thought of it. Could be true. But she was in a respectful relationship, their “attraction” lasted too long.
But yea ... Logan did change at the end.
And honestly I don’t want Jogan .. cz he dated Oro n she’s Jeans bff. Jean would b breaking girls code.

By the early 90, there wasn't really any attraction, as i said, Jean was a regular guest start in Logan solo after X-Tincion Agenda (their second kiss hapenned there), during Larry Hama's run that lasted from 91 to 97, she basically was helping him with the fake memory implants, she was his nurse/therapist/friend that tried to be there for him as much as she could and was very fearfull of his feral regression but there was never any hint of anything romantic beyond the AoA universe (wicth doesn't reallh count) and when she goes to Logan in Morrison's run, is not really about then, is ablut Scott and their problems, again i don't justify it but i kind of see the narrative and is one of the many reasons of why he stop her and tells her that "it would have never worked between us".

As for Jogan itself, honestly outside the AOA universe, i think that is a very toxic relationship that doesn't do any good for then.

[spirit2011]

Well, despite my view that mistakes were made on all sides, only Scott gets castigated. And what books have you been reading? Being completely vilified by everyone who ever called him friend or family for fighting on behalf of mutants is getting “everything all right”?

He got it bad. Since Jean is back she is all love about him. And he didn't warranted that

AFAIK, whatever the most recent claim made is canon unless specified otherwise; regardless, the closest analogue we have to telepathic intercourse is phone sex, which is bad but not as bad as a full-blown physical affair.

LOL you have to be kidding with me. Unless the phone sex is via snap chat or facetime

And I’ve been mocked for my view, but to answer the question: yes, I believe it is cheating. For me, the bond between spouses should be sacrosanct and I wish it were more valued these days. Many people fulfill our emotional needs, but there’s a physical intimacy that belongs to marriage and I include kissing among that intimacy. Jean cheated in my book, she did wrong; Scott did wrong too, because the emotional need he sought Emma out for also belongs to marriage. They both did wrong.

One kiss just isn't close to a affair, physical or not. both worng, bot not even close

[Hizashi]

He got it bad. Since Jean is back she is all love about him. And he didn't warranted that

LOL you have to be kidding with me. Unless the phone sex is via snap chat or facetime



One kiss just isn't close to a affair, physical or not. both worng, bot not even close

I’m mostly indifferent to Jean’s feelings towards Scott right now.

I didn’t say they were exactly the same, just that it’s the closest analogue.

I also didn’t say they were equally wrong, just that they’re both wrong.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Logan has certain level of blame, i can't deny it, but as far i'm concerned he made out for those mistakes and made his decision quite clear.

As for Jean, well this is my personal view, but i always thougth that she saw Logan as a wounded animal and the she confused emphathy with attraction, hence the kisses, it doesn't justified it for sure and it was wrong for both parties but is what it is, for me Logan eventually realized that.

And i agreed, both Scott and Jean failed at it.

Jean's feelings for Logan were WELL beyond simple empathy, they were well beyond empathy before she got married to Scott, sure she didn't love him as much but there was still a part of her that loved him as much more than a friend, and the Uncanny issue with the kiss between them wasn't crazy or weird and it made perfect sense, both thought that they were going to die so he kissed her thinking that it was their last few moments alive and Logan wasn't going to waste them, and Jean understood that and kissed him back and then didn't tell anyone about it afterwards...

[spirit2011]

I didn’t say they were exactly the same, just that it’s the closest analogue.
.

They aren't even close. Mind is a powerful thing, it can make illusions pretty real

[Disciple of Redd]

One thing I absolutely do not want from the next Jean ship is corniness. No nonsense about how the universe ends if they break up. No kids from the future. No villain obsessed about how their genes are the most uber powerfullest omegaest thing ever.

It should definitely focus on how Jean and the other person interact and what about their personalities make them fun and dynamic together, whether that is Logan or someone out of left field.

[spirit2011]

Maybe it won’t, but if Jean gets paired up with someone else, the deciding factor shouldn’t be how bad it would make Scott look or feel. Come on.

Not the main factor for sure.

I wonder who would be helped by having words put in their mouths or their concerns being waved away.

I wonder how help someone that prefers to open up to a woman that hates Jean

The Phoenix egg? The other hosts? The power to perform multiversal surgery? Morrison left the door open for Jean; Marvel chose not to open it.

phoenix egg and the other hosts just made Jean disposable

Her presence wouldn’t necessarily have changed anything, and that matters.

I hardly think Jean presence would't change nothing

[LoganAlpha30X33]

One thing I absolutely do not want from the next Jean ship is corniness. No nonsense about how the universe ends if they break up. No kids from the future. No villain obsessed about how their genes are the most uber powerfullest omegaest thing ever.

It should definitely focus on how Jean and the other person interact and what about their personalities make them fun and dynamic together, whether that is Logan or someone out of left field.

Well with Logan there wouldn't be kids from the future as there'd only really be X-23 and Jean already knows and likes her and most of Logan's villains just want to kill him...

[Disciple of Redd]

Nah. Smart money would bet on there being MORE kids when Logan is involved. I'd just hope they would avoid that.

People LOVE giving Logan kids. It is so annoying.

I do love Laura and Gabby though.

[Hizashi]

You see, I don't think this matches what he wrote. We didn't see hind nor hare of Phoenix until issue 120. All the marital problems are in place by then. As far as Jean not being a wife, IMO, Casey's first issue and the bedroom conversation in NXM 116 make it clear that Jean has been trying since he came back. That is 5 months. He has shut her out emotionally and physically for 5 months. I think pretty clear from the Logan Jean conversation in 117.

Hong Kong was in the annual, I believe set between 117 and 118. Again, the problems were all there before Phoenix. I suppose you could argue that Jean should have continued to try and try and try rather than leave with Xavier, That's not to the late 120s, though.

Before that, we had Jean asking him if he had slept with Emma in Hong Kong. I wouldn't imagine that no she kept me up all night would inspire much confidence. The scene ended with that. The one issue I had a bit of a problem with Jean was her pretty shutting Scott down. However, that conversation had nothing to do with their marriage. It was about the school going public

As I've said a bunch of times, Morrison just wouldn't give them any panel time together. That's how this thing lasted 40 issues. How can there be any resolution when the couple never speak. In my mind, 3 real conversations in 40 issues. The one in the bedroom. The one where Jean shut him down and her dying. The one about Hong Kong was very brief just like the one in the issue where Jean caught Scott and Emma. It was all Jean/Emma. Scott saying, read my mind, she does and he storms out of the mansion is not my idea of a real conversation. The death convo wasn't exactly lengthy either. But at least a few lines.

Obviously, Scott had been traumatized. Had sympathy for him in shutting Jean down. Until he started an affair with another. Yes, that was not his intent. Personally, I found it incredibly contrived plotting for him to go to Emma Frost, of all people, with his marital. That said, he let it turn into an affair. That is when my sympathy went out the window.

Bottom line, I don't see it as simple as Jean was not a wife anymore. He wouldn't let her be one. Again, I do think it can be reasonably argued that if she loved him as much as I always thought she did that she should not stop trying to get through to him. I don't find that as unfair criticism. And the kiss with Logan. That is on her no matter how long he shut her out. You want to be free to do that you separate or divorce. I've suggested that is how it should have been done IF you are determined to do Scemma. Jean and Scott separate early in the run. Slowly work toward Scott and Emma.

Neither party is completely innocent. However, my opinion on a kiss vs an ongoing psychic affair with a world class telepath remains the same as it's always been. That's why I give Scott the lion's share of the blame.

I think I read things a little differently from you, but this is fair.

[Hizashi]

They aren't even close. Mind is a powerful thing, it can make illusions pretty real

That’s what the use of the word analogue was for, an acknowledgment that we don’t really have anything like it.

[TheCape]

Jean's feelings for Logan were WELL beyond simple empathy, they were well beyond empathy before she got married to Scott, sure she didn't love him as much but there was still a part of her that loved him as much more than a friend, and the Uncanny issue with the kiss between them wasn't crazy or weird and it made perfect sense, both thought that they were going to die so he kissed her thinking that it was their last few moments alive and Logan wasn't going to waste them, and Jean understood that and kissed him back and then didn't tell anyone about it afterwards...

Hey, that's my view dude, feel free to disagreed, i don't think that there is much prove that Jean loved Logan beyond sexual attraction or empathy,hell Jean said to Ororo that Logan was like a brother to her during his solo, (i would argue that sometimes she even treated him like a kid), they had a conection, it is valuable and i do like it, but is not really something that should cross the romantic boundarie, i said that it doesn't make sense because Logan took his decision before she got married. Maybe it was just a moment of weakness of his part, seeing that they were going to die, but is Casey who has done a poor job with the characther before, so i authomatically give him less credit.

Also, don't get mad dude, is just how i see it, i'm sire that a lot of people disagreed with view rigth now lol.

P.S: I know that you ship Jogan and i don't have problem with you for that, is not an attack, but bear in mind that people aren't always going to see things in your way.