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  1. #661
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post


    It's so stupid.
    At least RYVClops was completely right on all accounts. Particularly with the fact the ol' Chuck shouldn't be trusted with watching over all the super-powered population of the US. "Losing" this version of Jean was a win for him, at least.

  2. #662
    Ninpuu - Shinobi Change! Striderblack01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    I would say the problem is it's a relationship born out of meta reasons and meta reasons alone. Claremont did it because he got angry at Scott, following writers did it mostly because Wolverine fanboyism. I don't think any writer has come up with any valid reason why these two are attracted toward each other, let alone why Wolverine's so deep in love with her and why Jean feels... whatever she feels toward him(they keep presenting it as something special).
    As much as I despise Jogan, I can take a guess.

    Both Scott and Jean are repressed by the powers, but they differ in subtle and relevant ways.
    Scott's repression coupled with his trauma makes him a highly disciplined introvert who is afraid of losing control.
    Jean's repression coupled with her desires makes her a highly responsible extrovert who secretly wants to shirk her responsibility.

    (Using extrovert here loosely - I'm not actually sure where she falls in that scale)

    They're both afraid of losing control, but there is a part of Jean that wants to do so.

    Then comes Logan.
    Here's a man who isn't repressed, who has embraced his entire self. He's a killer. He's largely fine with that.
    For both, Logan represents a type of self-actualization, but not a very good one.

    Scott views Logan as the highest type of irresponsibility - losing control, killing people, not really caring.
    Scott is repulsed. Jean, seeing the same thing, is attracted.
    She views Logan as a type of permission - to let go and be wild and free.
    But he also serves as a cautionary tale. In actuality, Logan is a mess; a mess she might be able to fix.

    <blergh>

    It's trashy and beneath her. But, unfortunately, it's not out of nowhere.
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  3. #663
    Peter Scott SpiderClops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Scott was completely ready to be the supportive cheerleader for Jean and encourage her - and she wasn’t having any of that. Think about it man, she reacted so negatively to Scott’s positive reinforcement that they divorced - that takes time and not once apparently did she stop to realize that she was throwing it all away because Scott had the audacity to believe in her. Logan better be careful not to encourage her or things could fall apart quickly.
    This post. I wanted to comment on the scan I posted. But couldn't articulate it very well. But this is pretty much exactly I wanted to say. Thank you.

    So what was that about Scott is an insecure man who can't take that his woman is so powerful, again?

  4. #664
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Scott was completely ready to be the supportive cheerleader for Jean and encourage her - and she wasn’t having any of that. Think about it man, she reacted so negatively to Scott’s positive reinforcement that they divorced - that takes time and not once apparently did she stop to realize that she was throwing it all away because Scott had the audacity to believe in her. Logan better be careful not to encourage her or things could fall apart quickly.
    Man, can you imagine how carefull has to be Logan in that relationship?.

    He must be in a thinner ice that most husband in the entire world, like:

    Jean: Hi dear
    Logan: Hi darling , you look great today!!
    Jean: I want the divorce
    Logan: No, wait darling i didn't mean to....

    Last edited by TheCape; 10-16-2018 at 07:02 AM.

  5. #665
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Striderblack01 View Post
    As much as I despise Jogan, I can take a guess.

    Both Scott and Jean are repressed by the powers, but they differ in subtle and relevant ways.
    Scott's repression coupled with his trauma makes him a highly disciplined introvert who is afraid of losing control.
    Jean's repression coupled with her desires makes her a highly responsible extrovert who secretly wants to shirk her responsibility.

    (Using extrovert here loosely - I'm not actually sure where she falls in that scale)

    They're both afraid of losing control, but there is a part of Jean that wants to do so.

    Then comes Logan.
    Here's a man who isn't repressed, who has embraced his entire self. He's a killer. He's largely fine with that.
    For both, Logan represents a type of self-actualization, but not a very good one.

    Scott views Logan as the highest type of irresponsibility - losing control, killing people, not really caring.
    Scott is repulsed. Jean, seeing the same thing, is attracted.
    She views Logan as a type of permission - to let go and be wild and free.
    But he also serves as a cautionary tale. In actuality, Logan is a mess; a mess she might be able to fix.

    <blergh>

    It's trashy and beneath her. But, unfortunately, it's not out of nowhere.
    True to an extent i suppose, a big part of Logan's characther in the 80s and 90s is the duality of the man/warrior vs beast/weapon, someone that at his core is at war with himself, he crave for peace but is also afraid of losing control like it was showed in the Wolverine mini in the 82, in that scenario that you are describing, i can see maybe a sort of crush, but with both eventually backing up in the idea at realizing the inherent problem of a relationship like that (Better as Friends Tv tropes), hence why both buried in the 90s, Logan has more problems in dealing with it because of his animalistic nature, but left things clear. Of course when she died the second time it became super creepy (or crepier if you want to go there), proably related to the trauma of having his entire memory back and what happened when he was a teenager. Honestly i think that Jean still wants to fix him (for the lack of a better term), but doesn't really want a romantic relationship with him, while Logan may wish that things had been different, but he knows that he isn't good for her in any level and that frankly she migth not be good for him either.

    But hey, i migth being bias here

  6. #666
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    True to an extent i suppose, a big part of Logan's characther in the 80s and 90s is the duality of the man/warrior vs beast/weapon, someone that at his core is at war with himself, he crave for peace but is also afraid of losing control like it was showed in the Wolverine mini in the 82, in that scenario that you are describing, i can see maybe a sort of crush, but with both eventually backing up in the idea at realizing the inherent problem of a relationship like that (Better as Friends Tv tropes), hence why both buried in the 90s, Logan has more problems in dealing with it because of his animalistic nature, but left things clear. Of course when she died the second time it became super creepy (or crepier if you want to go there), proably related to the trauma of having his entire memory back and what happened when he was a teenager. Honestly i think that Jean still wants to fix him (for the lack of a better term), but doesn't really want a romantic relationship with him, while Logan may wish that things had been different, but he knows that he isn't good for her in any level and that frankly she migth not be good for him either.

    But hey, i migth being bias here
    Yea didn’t they reveal that he had a childhood friend that resembled her. Which I found silly but oh well.
    As u mentioned previously... what she feels is probably empathy and physical attraction.

    P.S; ur memory is sharp ... u remember the comic n the year! I applaud u. What’s ur secret? Got exams in few months n I keep forgetting what I studied.

  7. #667
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abbz_A View Post
    Yea didn’t they reveal that he had a childhood friend that resembled her. Which I found silly but oh well.
    As u mentioned previously... what she feels is probably empathy and physical attraction.

    P.S; ur memory is sharp ... u remember the comic n the year! I applaud u. What’s ur secret? Got exams in few months n I keep forgetting what I studied.
    Rose O'Hare i think was her name, Logan started to remember her around the early 2000s , when Marvel revealed his origin as "James Howlett", after Jean died again and Logan recovering all his memories in House of M, he hit his lowest point and never was capable to get out of it until his death, his obsession with Jean became worst after all that. We probably should add to the list of "How Marvel characther assasinated Wolverine" in the last decade or so.

    Lol, i just check comic vine or the wiki before writing.
    Last edited by TheCape; 10-16-2018 at 07:37 AM.

  8. #668
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    True to an extent i suppose, a big part of Logan's characther in the 80s and 90s is the duality of the man/warrior vs beast/weapon, someone that at his core is at war with himself, he crave for peace but is also afraid of losing control like it was showed in the Wolverine mini in the 82, in that scenario that you are describing, i can see maybe a sort of crush, but with both eventually backing up in the idea at realizing the inherent problem of a relationship like that (Better as Friends Tv tropes), hence why both buried in the 90s, Logan has more problems in dealing with it because of his animalistic nature, but left things clear. Of course when she died the second time it became super creepy (or crepier if you want to go there), proably related to the trauma of having his entire memory back and what happened when he was a teenager. Honestly i think that Jean still wants to fix him (for the lack of a better term), but doesn't really want a romantic relationship with him, while Logan may wish that things had been different, but he knows that he isn't good for her in any level and that frankly she migth not be good for him either.

    But hey, i migth being bias here
    I see Logan as being oppossed to Scott. Logan is Jean wild side, the wish to be more free.
    While Scott is a safe choice, without any surprises.

    It's not hard to see why Jean was attracted to Logan

  9. #669
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Rose O'Hare i think was her name, Logan started to remember her around the early 2000s , when Marvel revealed his origin as "James Howlett", after Jean died again and Logan recovering all his memories in House of M, he hit his lowest point and never was capable to get out of it until his death, his obsession with Jean became worst after all that. We probably should add to the list of "How Marvel characther assasinated Wolverine" in the last decade or so.

    Lol, i just check comic vine or the wiki before writing.
    That’s actually true. Many marvel characters suffered character assassination ... Wolverine is the most. Too many writers wrote him wrong n poorly.

  10. #670
    Ninpuu - Shinobi Change! Striderblack01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    I see Logan as being oppossed to Scott. Logan is Jean wild side, the wish to be more free.
    While Scott is a safe choice, without any surprises.

    It's not hard to see why Jean was attracted to Logan
    And Logan is the unsafe choice.

    Literally unsafe.
    Unsafe for her, the people around them, and possibly the planet given Jean’s powers.

    It’s not hard to see why Scott is the better choice.
    The harder choice. The adult choice. The choice worth making.
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  11. #671
    Peter Scott SpiderClops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    I see Logan as being oppossed to Scott. Logan is Jean wild side, the wish to be more free.
    While Scott is a safe choice, without any surprises.

    It's not hard to see why Jean was attracted to Logan
    More contradictions.

    You can't treat women like crap and simultaneously be the safe choice for them.

  12. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Give me some examples of Scott's status negatively affecting Jean - other than Morrison, which we will count here. Give me other examples.
    I don't think I have other examples besides the 14 years dead
    And your dislike of Scott matters because your arguments stop being about Jean's betterment and instead about Scott's detriment.
    I think I can have both



    That's where Marvel ultimately chose to take those concepts, but that's also on them.

    Do you have a statement from Morrison about his dislike or hatred towards Jean?
    Marvel just used how it should be used, Morrison set up phoenix without Jean.

    Morrison said Jean was like his ex and Emma was more his actual GF.

    ... Yeah? That doesn't disprove my point. Sharing the spotlight wouldn't have changed his character narrative - so again, his character narrative was not dependent on her death.
    Jean would never let Cyclops become rightclops and commit the mistakes he did. His narrative wasn't dependent on her dead, but benefited from it

    Quote Originally Posted by Striderblack01 View Post
    And Logan is the unsafe choice.

    Literally unsafe.
    Unsafe for her, the people around them, and possibly the planet given Jean’s powers.

    It’s not hard to see why Scott is the better choice.
    The harder choice. The adult choice. The choice worth making.
    that turned out really great for Jean. Really great seeing your husband kissing another woman on your grave.
    Last edited by spirit2011; 10-16-2018 at 07:58 AM.

  13. #673
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    that turned out really great for Jean. Really great seeing your husband kissing another woman on your grave.
    Well we know that Morrison wasn't writing an adult Scott, unlike any previous writer. That's why i always find his attitude in that period hard to swallow.

  14. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    More contradictions.

    You can't treat women like crap and simultaneously be the safe choice for them.
    At least he seemed like the safest choice. Anyway he was the man that she loved

  15. #675
    Peter Scott SpiderClops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    I see Logan as being oppossed to Scott. Logan is Jean wild side, the wish to be more free.
    While Scott is a safe choice, without any surprises.

    It's not hard to see why Jean was attracted to Logan
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    More contradictions.

    You can't treat women like crap and simultaneously be the safe choice for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    At least he seemed like the safest choice. Anyway he was the man that she loved
    I'm just going to leave these three posts here. Your arguments are... something.

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