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  1. #766
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    And it depends on how long Scott is dead, by the time that he comes back things could be very different, and by then maybe he wouldn't be in charge and by then Jean could already be with Logan...that'd be good imho...

  2. #767
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Because retcons always make everything better.

    I'm a huge hater of dark and gritty and edgy. But why shouldn't Scott be cynical and jaded and just plain pissed off?

    He's died once for a while, and multiple other times for short periods of time. He's had to bury his wife... twice. He had to stop his ex-wife from destroying the world, and while possessed by an absurdly powerful cosmic entity, he nearly killed his girlfriend, then murdered his mentor. And what happened for mutants?

    NOTHING!!!!!!

    Their status is every bit as bad as it was before House of M. Any progress gets reverted every six months or so. His most positive effort was forgotten within six months in his time and two weeks in ours. Yes there aren't fewer than 400 mutants on the planet anymore, but that's just bringing things back to normal. Not better, just not worse.

    I can completely see how he'd be utterly sick of the fight and trying to win through pacifistic means.
    What you're getting at is the narrative ceiling imposed on the characters and the stories by the "illusion of change" genre convention. Read a superhero franchise long enough, and this meta element will inevitably become apparent and intrude on the reading experience.

    "Illusion of change" is why the X-Men never truly get ahead, or, if they do, it doesn't stick. It's why the characters aren't allowed to age past a certain point. It's also why Scott and Jean--and Scott and Emma, for that matter--don't permanently stay together and are doomed to an endless cycle of breakup, reconciliation, and breakup.

    I also think "illusion of change" is why Marvel is so resistant to just putting Scott and Jean back together and moving them forward. At this point, moving them forward means aging them. OTOH, going back to romantic angst and drama with them would just be rehashing old stories that have already been told. So, Jott remains on ice.

    Incidentally, I think Marvel ended Scemma during AvX for similar reasons. The next logical place to go was to have Scott and Emma marry. But, again, that would age them further. Scemma was approaching the same narrative ceiling Jott had hit. So, Marvel split them up.

  3. #768
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganAlpha30X33 View Post
    And it depends on how long Scott is dead, by the time that he comes back things could be very different, and by then maybe he wouldn't be in charge and by then Jean could already be with Logan...that'd be good imho...
    While I'm thinking about it:

    Create a Jean/Logan Appreciation Thread. We have a Jott shipper thread. We have a Scemma shipper thread (even though no one uses it). We may as well have a Jogan shipper thread. Who knows, the existence of such a thread might even lure Claremont to these boards.

    I'd create it myself, but I'm a Jott shipper.

  4. #769
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    While I'm thinking about it:

    Create a Jean/Logan Appreciation Thread. We have a Jott shipper thread. We have a Scemma shipper thread (even though no one uses it). We may as well have a Jogan shipper thread. Who knows, the existence of such a thread might even lure Claremont to these boards.

    I'd create it myself, but I'm a Jott shipper.
    He already did one, just that there aren't many people interestested in this boards (hell most Wolverine fans here don't care about it, me included)..
    Last edited by TheCape; 10-23-2018 at 07:04 AM.

  5. #770
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    What you're getting at is the narrative ceiling imposed on the characters and the stories by the "illusion of change" genre convention. Read a superhero franchise long enough, and this meta element will inevitably become apparent and intrude on the reading experience.

    "Illusion of change" is why the X-Men never truly get ahead, or, if they do, it doesn't stick. It's why the characters aren't allowed to age past a certain point. It's also why Scott and Jean--and Scott and Emma, for that matter--don't permanently stay together and are doomed to an endless cycle of breakup, reconciliation, and breakup.

    I also think "illusion of change" is why Marvel is so resistant to just putting Scott and Jean back together and moving them forward. At this point, moving them forward means aging them. OTOH, going back to romantic angst and drama with them would just be rehashing old stories that have already been told. So, Jott remains on ice.

    Incidentally, I think Marvel ended Scemma during AvX for similar reasons. The next logical place to go was to have Scott and Emma marry. But, again, that would age them further. Scemma was approaching the same narrative ceiling Jott had hit. So, Marvel split them up.
    1-That's a terrible problem. It means that no relationship is going anywhere, even if marvel pushes Jean/logan or Jean/someone else. we already know she is not going to marry or have kids (because it ages her)also as you said i don't think scott and emma are going to marry.. It makes me wonder why even push serious relationships, they only would make people dislike the next one.
    2- Marvel broke scemma but not in a serious way. i mean many people don't even remember they broke up. I'm so jealous, i wish Jean and scott had a break up like that because the only thing some people remember about their relationship is their break up.

  6. #771
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    1-That's a terrible problem. It means that no relationship is going anywhere, even if marvel pushes Jean/logan or Jean/someone else. we already know she is not going to marry or have kids (because it ages her)also as you said i don't think scott and emma are going to marry.. It makes me wonder why even push serious relationships, they only would make people dislike the next one.
    This is why, the older I get, the more I appreciate DC's original approach of having different iterations of their major characters live in different timelines. It allowed for newer, "more accessible" versions of characters to exist while allowing the older versions to age and move on. Golden Age Superman and Lois Lane got married and went on living on Earth-2 while Silver Age Superman and Lois remained single on Earth-1.

    Marvel could have, and IMO should have, used the Ultimate Universe in a similar way i.e. let the Marvel Universe versions age and live their lives and use their younger Ultimate counterparts for the subversive, twisty melodrama.

    2- Marvel broke scemma but not in a serious way. i mean many people don't even remember they broke up. I'm so jealous, i wish Jean and scott had a break up like that because the only thing some people remember about their relationship is their break up.
    For the moment, at least, Jott is on sounder footing than Scemma. Scott and Emma haven't been an item since AvX, and the last time they discussed their relationship (Uncanny X-Men vol. 3 #32), Scott made it clear to Emma he wasn't interested in getting back together. By contrast, Scott and Jean already reconciled in Phoenix Resurrection #5. If/when Scott comes back, that's the point he'll be picking up from.

    That said, I fully expect that JDW and the writers have come up with or are working on a way to subvert a straight-up Jott reunification. Even though it's been 17 years since Jott was truly a thing, the general mentality nevertheless seems to be that it's still part of "the Status QuoTM" and therefore something to be disrupted rather than reinstated.
    Last edited by FUBAR007; 10-22-2018 at 02:39 PM.

  7. #772
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    While I'm thinking about it:

    Create a Jean/Logan Appreciation Thread. We have a Jott shipper thread. We have a Scemma shipper thread (even though no one uses it). We may as well have a Jogan shipper thread. Who knows, the existence of such a thread might even lure Claremont to these boards.

    I'd create it myself, but I'm a Jott shipper.
    It already exists.

  8. #773
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    This is why, the older I get, the more I appreciate DC's original approach of having different iterations of their major characters live in different timelines. It allowed for newer, "more accessible" versions of characters to exist while allowing the older versions to age and move on. Golden Age Superman and Lois Lane got married and went on living on Earth-2 while Silver Age Superman and Lois remained single on Earth-1.

    Marvel could have, and IMO should have, used the Ultimate Universe in a similar way i.e. let the Marvel Universe versions age and live their lives and use their younger Ultimate counterparts for the subversive, twisty melodrama.
    DC is certainly doing a much better job of earning my patronage that's for sure.

    I would actually invert your idea - let the characters age in the Ultimate Universe, after all, they were already doing the "subversive, twisty melodrama" so why not add "actually aging" to that list? I know that both DC and Marvel had done this before with the Generations and M2 series where their characters aged and passed on their mantles, but the Ultimate Universe had a certain air of legitimacy and excitement that its predecessors lacked. Ultimately, it went too far off the rails and became a horrendous dumpster fire - and honestly that was apparent pretty early on - but it was the perfect place to do that in.

    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    For the moment, at least, Jott is on sounder footing than Scemma. Scott and Emma haven't been an item since AvX, and the last time they discussed their relationship (Uncanny X-Men vol. 3 #32), Scott made it clear to Emma he wasn't interested in getting back together. By contrast, Scott and Jean already reconciled in Phoenix Resurrection #5. If/when Scott comes back, that's the point he'll be picking up from.

    That said, I fully expect that JDW and the writers have come up with or are working on a way to subvert a straight-up Jott reunification. Even though it's been 17 years since Jott was truly a thing, the general mentality nevertheless seems to be that it's still part of "the Status QuoTM" and therefore something to be disrupted rather than reinstated.
    It's only my opinion of course, but that was hardly a reconciliation - they kissed and glossed over the things that Jean missed. I continue to maintain that Phoenix Resurrection was a poorly paced, poorly written, well-meaning mess.

  9. #774
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    It's only my opinion of course, but that was hardly a reconciliation - they kissed and glossed over the things that Jean missed. I continue to maintain that Phoenix Resurrection was a poorly paced, poorly written, well-meaning mess.
    I said it was a reconciliation. I didn't say it was a reconciliation all fans would find satisfying.

    IMO, what's most important about it is what didn't happen. Jean didn't reject Scott, and he didn't reject her. She didn't tell the Phoenix it was wasting its time because she and Scott were over and Emma was his true love now (as in Endsong). She and Scott didn't argue or engage each other only awkwardly and grudgingly. Scott didn't tell Jean that he'd moved on. They didn't behave like ex-spouses or "just friends" toward each other.

    This means, if/when Scott comes back, they won't be picking up where they left off at the end of Morrison's run, suspended in mid-air with all their neurotic baggage, but from a more solid point of mutual affirmation.

  10. #775
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    I said it was a reconciliation. I didn't say it was a reconciliation all fans would find satisfying.

    IMO, what's most important about it is what didn't happen. Jean didn't reject Scott, and he didn't reject her. She didn't tell the Phoenix it was wasting its time because she and Scott were over and Emma was his true love now (as in Endsong). She and Scott didn't argue or engage each other only awkwardly and grudgingly. Scott didn't tell Jean that he'd moved on. They didn't behave like ex-spouses or "just friends" toward each other.

    This means, if/when Scott comes back, they won't be picking up where they left off at the end of Morrison's run, suspended in mid-air with all their neurotic baggage, but from a more solid point of mutual affirmation.
    I didn’t mean to imply that you did, but fair enough. I also understand your point and agree that’s where Marvel wants Scott and Jean when he returns, but I personally find it lacking. I’m not necessarily arguing in favor of no Jott altogether, but I’d like them to confront everything that’s happened since Jean’s been gone. I think if a reconciliation was planned for Phoenix Resurrection then they should’ve spent more time on it.

  11. #776

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    Jean emotionally cheated on Scott for years. Wanna know why Scott was such a boring beta? Will-They-Wont-They is a game of being unfaithful. Jean toyed around with Wolverine behind his back, and Scott was insecure as ****. Instead of EVER blaming Jean, he took his rage out on Wolverine.

    This went on for years, but Red have the audacity to be upset with Emma Frost for coming into the picture and breaking up this little circus? Wow.
    Rant
    Jean really is the worst character in Marvel, isn't she?
    Scemma forever Triangle never.
    Scott needs an alpha female like Bettsy.
    What woman wouldn't be attracted to Scott? He's 100% alpha male who tells the Avengers to go f*#& themselves.
    I want cyclops back free from any ginger women to be his own man.
    Logically..
    TeenClops should have lusted for Emma & Cuckoos. Especially Stepford Cuckoos! They're teenage triplet clones of his hottest ex, how could he not be?
    End of rant

  12. #777
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldscottsummers View Post
    Jean emotionally cheated on Scott for years. Wanna know why Scott was such a boring beta? Will-They-Wont-They is a game of being unfaithful. Jean toyed around with Wolverine behind his back, and Scott was insecure as ****. Instead of EVER blaming Jean, he took his rage out on Wolverine.

    This went on for years, but Red have the audacity to be upset with Emma Frost for coming into the picture and breaking up this little circus? Wow.
    Simply not true. The whole Logan thing was brought up during the Morrison era when Jean initiated a kiss early in that run but where was this toying with Logan behind Scott's back for years prior to that? Any hints, teases or whatnot was dead and buried for years before UXM 394. It wasnt a thing

    Jean had every right to be mad at Emma. Any human with a pulse that learned their spouse was cheating would be mad. If she had no reaction, then that would be proof that she didnt really love Scott at all and was over him

  13. #778
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I didn’t mean to imply that you did, but fair enough. I also understand your point and agree that’s where Marvel wants Scott and Jean when he returns, but I personally find it lacking. I’m not necessarily arguing in favor of no Jott altogether, but I’d like them to confront everything that’s happened since Jean’s been gone. I think if a reconciliation was planned for Phoenix Resurrection then they should’ve spent more time on it.
    I thought the intention behind the Jean-Scott meeting was Phoenix using Scott as the last temptation for Jean to embrace the Phoenix.
    I created a thread about Dick Grayson/Nightwing and Koriand'r/Starfire. It is to acknowledge and honor their iconic and popular relationship.

    I created a fan page about Peter Parker/Spider-Man and Mary Jane Watson. This page is for all the Spider-Marriage fans.

  14. #779
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    Jean turned to Logan when Scott shut her out and turned to Emma instead, Scott went further with Emma than Jean went with Logan, it's like trying to blame Maddy for Scott's actions...all over again...

  15. #780
    Mighty Member nightw1ng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldscottsummers View Post
    Jean emotionally cheated on Scott for years. Wanna know why Scott was such a boring beta? Will-They-Wont-They is a game of being unfaithful. Jean toyed around with Wolverine behind his back, and Scott was insecure as ****. Instead of EVER blaming Jean, he took his rage out on Wolverine.

    This went on for years, but Red have the audacity to be upset with Emma Frost for coming into the picture and breaking up this little circus? Wow.
    The whole subplot of Jean being attracted to Logan was something mainly Claremont pushed in a handful of scenes, but once he was gone, that was over for all of the 90s and the Jott marriage. If anything, the cartoons and the movies were the ones that made it a thing. Anyway, it only was brought up again in the comics after Scott was traumatized by his merging with Apocalypse and cut off intimacy with Jean.

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