The Rectangle: Jean/Scott/Emma/Logan Discussion

[spirit2011]

Nah. You post the Jott and Scemma scenes that do something positive for Jean's character instead. Lol

If there wasn't a talk from Scott/Emma saying nice things about Jean, sure they were trashtalking her.
I read endsong and wheson astonishing, and the negative talk of Jean is Astonishing

[spirit2011]

What am I ignoring? Genuine question, I'm confused.
Maybe at the time that was true, but everything has been recontextualized/retconned recently.

There is zero sign that Scott still loved Jean on Endsong.

Throughout your life does not mean while you are with someone in a committed relationship it means what it says on the tin. I don't believe that Scott loved Emma until Astonishing X-Men anyway. And Marvel has unfortunately straddled the line about how much Jean is attracted to Wolverine and whether that goes as far as romantic attraction while with Scott.

You misunderstood my comment as I never meant it applied to people who were already in a committed relationship and loved someone else who was alive - when a married person loses their spouse and they move on later in life it's not impossible or wrong.

Death on Marvel universe is temporary, so being still in love with somebody dead is creepy and also mess your line of thoght. Now Emma and Jean are both alive, Scott loves the two?

Jean never love Logan, people have to stop trying to finding ways to hate on Jean. She was attracted to him, and they shared a strong friendship, they were together on almost death situtations.

Cyclops was in love with Emma before astonishing, he was gonna to choose betwen she and Jean. If she was just a adventure he wouldn't need to choose

[Hizashi]

There is zero sign that Scott still loved Jean on Endsong.

Maybe not love in the marital, romantic sense but he certainly still loved her and I believe that's supported by the story.

Death on Marvel universe is temporary, so being still in love with somebody dead is creepy and also mess your line of thoght. Now Emma and Jean are both alive, Scott loves the two?

Jean never love Logan, people have to stop trying to finding ways to hate on Jean. She was attracted to him, and they shared a strong friendship, they were together on almost death situtations.

Cyclops was in love with Emma before astonishing, he was gonna to choose betwen she and Jean. If she was just a adventure he wouldn't need to choose

Only we, the readers, have the advantage of knowing that death for them is temporary and while Jean has a unique relationship with death and rebirth there was no way for the characters to know in-universe that she was guaranteed to return. Scott being unable to completely move on from his love with Jean isn't so unbelievable, the dissolution of their marriage didn't have proper closure. I guess Jean is creepy and has a messed up line of thought considering that she still loves Cyclops, who is still dead for all intents and purposes. And if Scott indeed has feelings for Jean and Emma then he needs to not burden them with that until he can commit/come to terms responsibly. It's not as complicated as you're making it out to be.

Marvel shouldn't have straddled that line, and Claremont shouldn't have pushed it because his word wasn't law with Cyclops.

He wasn't in love with Emma before Astonishing, he specifically said things had changed when referencing his newfound love for her. He needed to choose because in Morrison's run his relationship with Jean was changing/ending and Emma represented opportunity/potential. I'm not saying that was right or in-character, but it is what it is.

[TheCape]

An Unmovable Object vs An Unstopable Force

This is this thread at this point lol.

[TheDeadSpace]

An Unmovable Object vs An Unstopable Force

This is this thread at this point lol.

At this point, yes...yes it is.

[Hizashi]

An Unmovable Object vs An Unstopable Force

This is this thread at this point lol.

Ok, but are we the Immovable Object or the Irresistible Force? My vote is for the second.

[TheCape]

Ok, but are we the Immovable Object or the Irresistible Force? My vote is for the second.

Irresistible make my mind go to dirty places (sorry, my mind is in the gutter these days lol), but if you want to call yourself that, i'm not going to judge

[Ulfhammer]

Jean would NEVER. The level of violence here was egregious. To think Jean would be okay with this suggests you either dont understand her or dont care bc your fixated on pushing her with Wolverine. Of course she knew Wolverine killed. Theres a difference between knowing that and being with a person and actively condoning and supporting it. It breaks the character to have her do so

I think we don't know exactly what Jean would have done or been willing to accept during Decimation.

I'd like to remind you of three facts about Jean.

1. She'd killed violently and viscerally herself, and not under the influence of the PF. Note Prism's swift fate below.



2. When confronted with serious threats to her students, Jean is capable of violence. Note her parting words to the U-Men. We have no reason to believe this is an empty threat.



3. We can assume some sense of what Jean's attitude towards Decimation would be based on her reaction to mutant circumstances in XF 1. This doesn't suggest to me she's advocating for a diplomatic approach.



Beyond these examples, there are aspects of Jean's personality that are drawn toward violence. Note her DP speech to Scott about the destruction of the D'Bari star. She specifically comments on the fact the destroying the star, using her powers in that way, felt good. Of course, you could argue that's DP and not Jean, and therefore isn't indicative but there are some facts worth noting. DP was based on Jean's personality, memories and soul. It was this fact that caused DP to commit suicide on the moon. Since that noble aspect clearly came from Jean, is it unreasonalbe to suggest that the enjoyment of using her powers for violence wasn't an aspect of Jean's personality either?

I want to be very clear. I'm not trying to besmirch Jean's actions in any of these cases. All I want to point out is that Jean is capable of violence, and especially so when defending those she loves or those that can't defend themselves. Maybe her accepting X-Force is a leap, yes. What's clear to me though is that we can't really predict what her reaction to decimation or Stryker's bombing might have been. A violent response was clearly possible for her.

[Disciple of Redd]

And there is Astonishing X-Men. The very first issue shows that Emma ranks below Jean's corpse. And Kitty suspecting if she's mind-controlling Scott. And many other instances where Emma is insecure of Jean, even though she's dead. And characters telling Scott that they liked him better when he was with Jean. But you know, selective canon and all.

I actually have never described Jean as just sweet. What you want Jean to be, she already is and has been for a long time. You really think that all Jean's struggle have been about fighting Scott's exes? Seriously? What even do you mean by being multi-faceted? "Oh look, she's not with Scott. Super multi-faceted already. Cuz reasons!"

If she really really cannot develop at all with being Scott(which you are saying, not me), then there is some serious problem with her character. And if your excuse is that all writers are somehow huge misogynistic douchebags and just won't let Jean develop at all, then I don't know what to tell you. Seriously, by your logic, Louise Simonson must be the biggest misogynist of them all.

I've never seen such character hatred of this degree. Literally anyone that's in relationship with Scott is just doomed, like Scott is some fourth wall breaking supernatural character that just won't let his women shine.

What do Emma being insecure and people pointing out to Scott that Jean existed in like two issues have to do with anything? Lol

I don't know what to tell you if you think kids from the future and evil exes are character development. (Those are plots).

Jean's own struggles, when stories focused on her, were about her connection to the Phoenix (which is proper, but has sadly been taken from her) or Scott's girlfriends.

As writers would tell you, we have yet to see much development for Jean. She's one of the oldest X-characters but her most dynamic moments, where she's not just being the nice cheerleader for Scott, are very scattered.

We're not going to see the most dynamic version of Jean in Jott stories. The writers know that.

Before she was killed off to push Cyclops' narrative (both in a meta sense and in-story), she showed great strength in letting go of the past and preparing to move forward. We should see where this new direction takes her, rather than reneging on that for a more-of-the-same pairing that does nothing good for her character.

Bring back Lee Forrester if Emma is unavailable.


Trying to decide whether I like Scott less than Lori from the Walking Dead

[spirit2011]

Maybe not love in the marital, romantic sense but he certainly still loved her and I believe that's supported by the story.

I could agree, but then Scott was too quick to decide to kill Jean.

Only we, the readers, have the advantage of knowing that death for them is temporary and while Jean has a unique relationship with death and rebirth there was no way for the characters to know in-universe that she was guaranteed to return. Scott being unable to completely move on from his love with Jean isn't so unbelievable, the dissolution of their marriage didn't have proper closure. I guess Jean is creepy and has a messed up line of thought considering that she still loves Cyclops, who is still dead for all intents and purposes. And if Scott indeed has feelings for Jean and Emma then he needs to not burden them with that until he can commit/come to terms responsibly. It's not as complicated as you're making it out to be.

She already did come back before, and then there is phoenix that pretty much confirms that Jean would be back.

You just said on your answer that Scott didn't loved Jean anymore romantically. So Scott didn't loved both Emma and Jean on the same time.

Yeah, Jean is a creepy. There is lots of men alive, she doesn't need to be loyal to a corpse

Marvel shouldn't have straddled that line, and Claremont shouldn't have pushed it because his word wasn't law with Cyclops.

Marvel shoudn't have indulged on Morrison writing too

He wasn't in love with Emma before Astonishing, he specifically said things had changed when referencing his newfound love for her. He needed to choose because in Morrison's run his relationship with Jean was changing/ending and Emma represented opportunity/potential. I'm not saying that was right or in-character, but it is what it is.

So Cyclops was about to leave Jean because Emma was bringing something new, not because he loved her. Now remember me why I should want him back with Jean now?
Maybe he didn't fully loved her, but he was almost there and let Jean on his rear view

Trying to decided whether I like Scott less than Lori from the Walking Dead

Holy Geeezus. Lori is the most hateble character ever

[Disciple of Redd]

Holy Geeezus. Lori is the most hateble character ever

She's definitely up there, but it's a contest for sure.

At least Lori is responsible for her actions instead of Rick being psychically responsible for what she does from beyond the grave.

It's a close race for who's worse.

[spirit2011]

Cause he learned his lesson maybe? I know, if there's a more negative interpretation of scott's actions, you'll always elect to choose that to believe.

what lesson? He was thinking about leaving Jean for Emma, and I have no doubt he was going to do it.

Leave maddie and his son, then not leave Emma would be a joke

[Ulfhammer]

what lesson? He was thinking about leaving Jean for Emma, and I have no doubt he was going to do it.

Leave maddie and his son, then not leave Emma would be a joke

The lesson that maybe dumping whoever he's with to be with Jean isn't the brightest idea ever... It didn't really work out so well the first time.

[lancer]

The lesson that maybe dumping whoever he's with to be with Jean isn't the brightest idea ever... It didn't really work out so well the first time.

Well, since I don't think he dumped Maddie "to be with" Jean, I don't think it applies anyway.

[lancer]

I think we don't know exactly what Jean would have done or been willing to accept during Decimation.

I'd like to remind you of three facts about Jean.

1. She'd killed violently and viscerally herself, and not under the influence of the PF. Note Prism's swift fate below.



2. When confronted with serious threats to her students, Jean is capable of violence. Note her parting words to the U-Men. We have no reason to believe this is an empty threat.



3. We can assume some sense of what Jean's attitude towards Decimation would be based on her reaction to mutant circumstances in XF 1. This doesn't suggest to me she's advocating for a diplomatic approach.



Beyond these examples, there are aspects of Jean's personality that are drawn toward violence. Note her DP speech to Scott about the destruction of the D'Bari star. She specifically comments on the fact the destroying the star, using her powers in that way, felt good. Of course, you could argue that's DP and not Jean, and therefore isn't indicative but there are some facts worth noting. DP was based on Jean's personality, memories and soul. It was this fact that caused DP to commit suicide on the moon. Since that noble aspect clearly came from Jean, is it unreasonalbe to suggest that the enjoyment of using her powers for violence wasn't an aspect of Jean's personality either?

I want to be very clear. I'm not trying to besmirch Jean's actions in any of these cases. All I want to point out is that Jean is capable of violence, and especially so when defending those she loves or those that can't defend themselves. Maybe her accepting X-Force is a leap, yes. What's clear to me though is that we can't really predict what her reaction to decimation or Stryker's bombing might have been. A violent response was clearly possible for her.

I don't agree with your character assessment of Jean Grey. Assuming again, that UXM 101-137 is not Jean. Example 1, we know very little about Prism's physiology. He's made of glass. For all we know, he could reconstitue himself at some point. You smash Sandman into pieces he's not dead.
Hard to tell with the Maruaders. They all tend to show up again, but they were all probably cloned multiple times. You never really know who is the original or not. Well, not when I last read the books, anyway.

Two is Grant Morrison. I wouldn't exactly hold his characterizations up as true. That said, as with Cyclops, it still all counts unless retconned. Still, did she kill anyone? Maim anyone? She basically gave them the urge to crap their pants.

Number 3 is probably the weakest of the 3. You take one paragraph out of context and present it as Jean as violent, almost a loose cannon. Ridiculous, IMO. What was the aftermath of this? Violence? They formed a squad to rescue and educate young mutants. The speech isn't advocating violence. It's Jean saying, I'm not going to sit on my hands while mutants get wiped. She is not calling for a violent path.

That is not X FACTOR Jean. She is light and hope and optimism. She was the only one who refused to fight Warren when he was Death. I won't give up on you Warren. Maddie was trying to sacrifice her own kid. Jean's response wasn't, let's kill this bitch. You was trying to reason with Maddie, help her to the end.

This is Silver Age Jean, this is 90s Jean. Now, that is how many years. I guess you can find examples. Like Meme, Jean killed her. But it was Meme or the people she absorbed. Jean was crying over it

Jean Grey is not Wolverine in terms of killing or propensity towards violence. Nothing close. Even if you said Phoenix was Jean it was a changed Jean. The characters mention a number of times over those 36 isssues.

I did not view Jean as having a hair trigger temper like a Rogue or Wolverine. She has a simmering temper. A reasonably long fuse. Now, once you lit it, watch out. That said, I did not agree with Morrison that she had a dangerous temper. In X FACTOR 1, she blows the wall out of her room, but the captions clearly state that she caught any debris that might have fallen and injured anyone. She did not have a reckless temper.

LOL, you read like a poster I used to read on RACMX. A Jean fan who hated 90s Jean.. In character, in FATAL ATTRACTIONS, Jean would have been right beside Logan trying to kill Magneto. X FACTOR Jean was the loose cannon of the team. I'm thinking, what X FACTOR did this guy read?
I remember one of the example. The entire team had to hold Jean back to keep her from attacking Magneto. This is the issue they saw him entering the Hellfire Club when he was still with the X Men.
Completely misrepresented the scene. That was a gross exaggeration of what happened.

I managed to refrain from posting in the latest debate on what exactly Jean did in HCT. I couldn't resist her since I so fundamentally disagree with your assessment of Jean and her alleged tendencies toward violence.