The Rectangle: Jean/Scott/Emma/Logan Discussion

[lancer]

An Unmovable Object vs An Unstopable Force

This is this thread at this point lol.

Quoted for truth. It's like WW1. Trench warfare. Each side is dug in on their position. I know I am in mine. Unless the original stories are retconned, of course.

[Hizashi]

Irresistible make my mind go to dirty places (sorry, my mind is in the gutter these days lol), but if you want to call yourself that, i'm not going to judge

lol, I meant us Cyke fans.

[lancer]

Nameless thugs? Thats worse than the likes of Mystique, Sabretooth and any big time villian thats caused massive destruction. Jean would not condone the murder of nameless thugs. Do you see how she's written in Red? She's very passive and sees "nameless thugs" as misguided and victims with potential for reform. It would be writing Jean out of character to have her cool with unnecessary killing and assassinating her like that isnt worth pushing a relationship forward



If Wolverine was leading X-Force in this same mission, those soldiers would have all been slaughtered. There is no way Jean would ever support that and she wouldnt be true to herself if she did

Occasionally I'm tempted to look at a few issues of RED. The little I saw I liked the characterization. Some panels with Nova talking about how empathy is not a weakness. Read that and thought, that's Jean Grey. Just a snippet, though, and out of context. Knowing Marvel I'd read it all and probably not like it. But just trying to give credit where I think it's due. I'm not critical just for the sake of being critical. If I think they got the character right I'll say it.

[Hizashi]

What do Emma being insecure and people pointing out to Scott that Jean existed in like two issues have to do with anything? Lol

That there wasn't a pervasive anti-Jean narrative among the characters or the books. Say what you will about the editorial decisions, the characters didn't denigrate Jean repeatedly if at all - except for Emma.

I don't know what to tell you if you think kids from the future and evil exes are character development. (Those are plots).

They are indeed plots, in a sense - Jean's reactions are character development.

Jean's own struggles, when stories focused on her, were about her connection to the Phoenix (which is proper, but has sadly been taken from her) or Scott's girlfriends.

The Phoenix stuff was good for her - but Scott isn't inherently detrimental to her, any more than she is for him.

As writers would tell you, we have yet to see much development for Jean. She's one of the oldest X-characters but her most dynamic moments, where she's not just being the nice cheerleader for Scott, are very scattered.

Well, she's been dead for more than a decade and Marvel flubbed both her return and her first book - and Scott wasn't even around for those.

We're not going to see the most dynamic version of Jean in Jott stories. The writers know that.

Pretty bold assumption - I'm sure we can see the most dynamic Jean in a Jott story. We just need the correct writer.

Before she was killed off to push Cyclops' narrative (both in a meta sense and in-story), she showed great strength in letting go of the past and preparing to move forward. We should see where this new direction takes her, rather than reneging on that for a more-of-the-same pairing that does nothing good for her character.

You have claimed before that she was killed for Cyclops' narrative, but that is not true - her death only benefited Scemma at best. Scott's narrative became about the Extinction Crisis which didn't involve Jean in any way except tangentially at the end. Jean was moving beyond mortal understanding and Marvel chose to keep her dead instead of exploring where that could lead despite the setup Morrison gave them - and they chose to take the Phoenix from her when they brought her back and that had nothing to do with Scott. She explicitly rejected the Phoenix despite it dangling Scott in front of her.

Bring back Lee Forrester if Emma is unavailable.

I'd be okay with this, but I think last time we saw her she was in a committed relationship.

Trying to decide whether I like Scott less than Lori from the Walking Dead

This isn't a contest, Lori is absolutely horrid.

[lancer]

I like jott but i dont like to make excuses. Endsong was all about scemma though after it there were many times were marvel wrote jean as scott's one true love, thats canon too.
this notion that scott doesnt love jean is weird. despite his many mistakes he is the character with the most panel time dedicated to say how cool jean is by far for most of the x-men story, to this day even with tyke

Absolutely, anything can be retconned. I'm speaking to ENDSONG as it happened. I don't get it. JOTT have a sweet moment at the end and he's still in love with her? We just forget the reat of the series? Scott saying he chose Emma. Scott saying he and Jean were over. The heart racing I remember is Scott for Emma. Or heart jumped, I don't remember the exact words. Phoenix recognizes how Scott feels about Emma.

That series reaffirms Scemma, Not Jott. The warm stuff at the and doesn't mean Scott is in love with her. Her cares about her, he always will. Probably loves her, but he's not in love with her anymore. Again, later writers can undo anything. I'm talking my interpretation when I read it in 2005, was that the year? I know it was no Jott story because, damn, it was hard to get through. The things Scott was saying. Not that I found them that surprising after Morrison. Still, hard to get through. Read it for Jean and immediately wished I hadn't.

[Hizashi]

I could agree, but then Scott was too quick to decide to kill Jean.

I'll have to double-check how quickly he decided that and whether there was other context, but assuming you're correct, then I agree he shouldn't have done that. Scott's fans don't tend to shy away from mistakes he's made. I still don't think that would mean he didn't love her in some sense.

She already did come back before, and then there is phoenix that pretty much confirms that Jean would be back.

Only we could be certain she would return some day - but I'm sure even some of Jean's most ardent fans began to fear she would keep Uncle Ben and Mar-Vell company from then on; Scott had no way of being sure that she would return even if he and the X-Men thought that she would.

You just said on your answer that Scott didn't loved Jean anymore romantically. So Scott didn't loved both Emma and Jean on the same time.

I said if - but what's your point here?

Yeah, Jean is a creepy. There is lots of men alive, she doesn't need to be loyal to a corpse

Okay, glad we cleared this up.

Marvel shoudn't have indulged on Morrison writing too

Yeah, they should've run a tighter ship with him - I'm sure even he feels that way now. Regardless, after he left, Marvel chose to keep her benched, Scott had nothing to do with it.

So Cyclops was about to leave Jean because Emma was bringing something new, not because he loved her. Now remember me why I should want him back with Jean now?
Maybe he didn't fully loved her, but he was almost there and let Jean on his rear view

The marriage was dissolving and Emma represented a second chance/new opportunity if Marvel hasn't retconned Endsong. Jean was becoming a fully transcendental being and Morrison has clarified that she would no longer be able to relate to Scott or mortal concerns. I'm certain that Scott was agonizing over how things were falling apart with Jean, it wasn't easy for him to leave her - even if he made a stupid mistake.

Holy Geeezus. Lori is the most hateble character ever

We can at least agree here.

[phoenixzero23]

Absolutely, anything can be retconned. I'm speaking to ENDSONG as it happened. I don't get it. JOTT have a sweet moment at the end and he's still in love with her? We just forget the reat of the series? Scott saying he chose Emma. Scott saying he and Jean were over. The heart racing I remember is Scott for Emma. Or heart jumped, I don't remember the exact words. Phoenix recognizes how Scott feels about Emma.

That series reaffirms Scemma, Not Jott. The warm stuff at the and doesn't mean Scott is in love with her. Her cares about her, he always will. Probably loves her, but he's not in love with her anymore. Again, later writers can undo anything. I'm talking my interpretation when I read it in 2005, was that the year? I know it was no Jott story because, damn, it was hard to get through. The things Scott was saying. Not that I found them that surprising after Morrison. Still, hard to get through. Read it for Jean and immediately wished I hadn't.

Yeah, Endsong was supposed to be about Jean but ended being all about emma/scemma. I find it horrible. it's probably the reason i dislike emma/scemma so much, everything came at the expense of Jean and jott.

but romance is difficult on marvel in general, in endsong they were playing with scemma as the OTP, in phoenix resurrection it was Jott, tomorrow it will be something else and after that other thing and if they ever want to try jott again they will say jott was always the OTP, that's marvel but some people just don't understand that, yeah it sucks but thats how it works.
for example, all of this was after endsong and it was pushing the opposite narrative.
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JDW made some interesting comments about shipping this week, in one of them a scemma shipper was saying that he/she wanted scemma and wanted scott and emma's path to be connected again because scemma had fans. JDW replied that nothing of that mattered at all and that marvel cares about telling a good story. so scemma, jott, jogan, whatever and his fans don't matter. everything will be ignored to push whatever they want at the moment.

when they want they will make scott dumb emma or viceversa. or despite pushing jott hard this year they can easily make each other act like nothing the next time they interact and the same will be whenever they want to end whatever relationship jean starts now.
when marvel broke Jott is when every relationship became expendable, when they decided they didn't want to commit themselves seriously to anything, specially romance and not even marriage was sacred.

[PrezValentine]

The best part about this is the fact that this clusterf*ck of a thread is reaching 100 pages. You gotta recognize the legwork put here.

[TheDeadSpace]

The best part about this is the fact that this clusterf*ck of a thread is reaching 100 pages. You gotta recognize the legwork put here.

It sure is something. To be honest, I'm slightly surprised its almost 100 pages.

[phoenixzero23]

The best part about this is the fact that this clusterf*ck of a thread is reaching 100 pages. You gotta recognize the legwork put here.

The weird thing is that it's always the same people, arguing the same points over and over again and going nowhere.

[TheDeadSpace]

The weird thing is that it's always the same people, arguing the same points over and over again and going nowhere.

Yep, I learned that the hard way.

[Hizashi]

The weird thing is that it's always the same people, arguing the same points over and over again and going nowhere.

I’ve become like the books I read, repeating storylines.

[lancer]

The weird thing is that it's always the same people, arguing the same points over and over again and going nowhere.

I think that could be said for many threads. This a thread devoted to the couples. Invariably the same points are going to be made. Until new developments happen with them, I guess. The older issues haven't changed. I know my interpretation of what Morrison did, or what his intentions were, is not going to change. Well, if he clarified them and they were not what I think then they'd change.
Otherwise, different day same opinions.

[Disciple of Redd]

It's glorious.

And also all for nought because we already know editorial and the Uncanny writer see Jott as the single important part of Jean Grey's history. Plus we're rehashing 90s.

Jott is coming back in a big way.

[phoenixzero23]

It's glorious.

And also all for nought because we already know editorial and the Uncanny writer see Jott as the single important part of Jean Grey's history. Plus we're rehashing 90s.

Jott is coming back in a big way.

You know that Jean is dating someone else, you have commented on the writers/editors twitter and all the threads about it. there is no jott/scemma/jogan and it wont be for the foresable future

also rosenberg as said that even if he likes the couple (he hates jean for that according to you) that jean needs a time without the relationship.


also jott is one of the greatest romances in comics.