Batman and Batfamily Solicitations for November 2018

[JasonTodd428]

I think there's a middle ground when it comes to villains, and writers could probably construe a connection with Jason if they were so interested in doing so.

True but then again editorial will have their own ideas about which villains can and can't be used in such situations as well as whether or not they can be killed. Lobdell wanted to have someone else as the villain at the start of the Rebirth book but was told by editorial to use Black Mask instead.

[G-Potion]

Not to mention, in R/A where Lobdell started to build a rogue gallery but ultimately had to shaft them to promote Gordon. And then had to wrap up the book quickly so Roy can go to Titans.

[JasonTodd428]

Not to mention, in R/A where Lobdell started to build a rogue gallery but ultimately had to shaft them to promote Gordon. And then had to wrap up the book quickly so Roy can go to Titans.

Exactly. I think far more goes on behind the scenes they fans are aware of and frankly there are very few writers that have enough clout that actually get to write whatever they want however they want when handling Big Two IPs. Lobdell isn't one of those by a long shot.

[Flash Gordon]

Batman #58 & 59
Catwoman #5

[MajorHoy]

Possibly:

BATGIRL #29 (still have to see how Scott's run starts)

[Godlike13]

Every book has to deal with editorial. I’m sorry but that’s a rather lazy excuse, and a rather overused one when it comes to Lobdell. We have seen plenty of writers who don’t get to write whatever they want, with less time on a character, create new villains for their characters.

[byrd156]

Exactly. I think far more goes on behind the scenes they fans are aware of and frankly there are very few writers that have enough clout that actually get to write whatever they want however they want when handling Big Two IPs. Lobdell isn't one of those by a long shot.

Editorial screwing up is the reason we got the New 52 and why it was such a mess in the first place.

[G-Potion]

Every book has to deal with editorial. I’m sorry but that’s a rather lazy excuse, and a rather overused one when it comes to Lobdell. We have seen plenty of writers who don’t get to write whatever they want, with less time on a character, create new villains for their characters.

Editorial mandates affect writers and their books in different ways so there's no point comparing them. We're talking about RHATO and mandates ranging from using such and such villains to changing writers to changing the book direction in order to promote something else are all facts. Easy for you to say it's a lazy excuse when you are not in their shoes.

[JasonTodd428]

Every book has to deal with editorial. IÂ’m sorry but thatÂ’s a rather lazy excuse, and a rather overused one when it comes to Lobdell. We have seen plenty of writers who donÂ’t get to write whatever they want, with less time on a character, create new villains for their characters.

I don't see where you're getting the idea that Lobdell hasn't bother to create new villains for Jason. He's created several since the New 52 run of the book. Crux was one initially as were the Untitled who I believe where actually intended to become a main villain group for Jason up until Lobdell left the book. I don't blame him for the wasted potential of the Untitled. The blame for that goes to Tynion who basically turned the concept into a dumpster fire with his ridiculous story line.

Then there's the Rebirth run where he created Solitary and very soon there will be the Underlife.

So no that's really not the problem here at all. I still think that someone, somewhere felt a more prominent villain was needed to be used here for the story to have the necessary punch.

[JasonTodd428]

Editorial mandates affect writers and their books in different ways so there's no point comparing them. We're talking about RHATO and mandates ranging from using such and such villains to changing writers to changing the book direction in order to promote something else are all facts. Easy for you to say it's a lazy excuse when you are not in their shoes.

Exactly. Writers on fringe titles seem to get a lot more creative freedom and less editorial edicts then say a Bat title does for example so the two aren't really comparable at all in my opinion.

[Godlike13]

Editorial mandates affect writers and their books in different ways so there's no point comparing them. We're talking about RHATO and mandates ranging from using such and such villains to changing writers to changing the book direction in order to promote something else are all facts. Easy for you to say it's a lazy excuse when you are not in their shoes.

Thats part of the job. Every book has to deal with editorial and mandates. Lobdell has actually been on RHatO and Jason longer then i believe any other current DC writer has on a character. We have seen plenty of other books create emotional new villains under mandates and shifts. Editorial is a lazy excuse, thats just trying to shift the blame on the easy boogie man that is editorial.

I don't see where you're getting the idea that Lobdell hasn't bother to create new villains for Jason. He's created several since the New 52 run of the book. Crux was one initially as were the Untitled who I believe where actually intended to become a main villain group for Jason up until Lobdell left the book. I don't blame him for the wasted potential of the Untitled. The blame for that goes to Tynion who basically turned the concept into a dumpster fire with his ridiculous story line.

Then there's the Rebirth run where he created Solitary and very soon there will be the Underlife.

So no that's really not the problem here at all. I still think that someone, somewhere felt a more prominent villain was needed to be used here for the story to have the necessary punch.

Im getting the idea from you, as you bought up editorial as to why Lobdell didn't create and establish a credible new villain that could carry an emotional weight for Jason to kill or what have you.

Exactly. Writers on fringe titles seem to get a lot more creative freedom and less editorial edicts then say a Bat title does for example so the two aren't really comparable at all in my opinion.

Other Bat titles have created new villains that carried emotional weight, or have tried to. Its doable. And as you just pointed out Lobdell has had the freedom to create new villains.

[Rise]

It took decades for Batman's gallery and a lot of exposure for them to be as important as they are to today. Whether it was Lobdell or editorial's decision, it was a smart and daring choice that made an impression on the audience.

If the patch on Penguin is indeed there because of what Jason did, it make it even better. Let's not forget that the issue is coming out in November and it's possible that months passed between the event in issue 25 of Rhato and the new arc in Batman for Penguin to recover enough to be walking since we already know that he survived month ago and Lobdell didn't pretend otherwise.

I'm not sure I agree with you there. I think it would depend on how it was handled to be honest and it isn't as if Bat characters haven't fallen for manipulations before Catwoman being the most recent example of that. Also if you want to get technical about it Bane was manipulating Batman himself during Knightfall by forcing him to face all those foes in order to wear him down.

In any case its doubtful that there will be any meaningful mention or resolution to the events in RHATO #25 in any other Bat book so its a moot point anyway.

I can accept Bane taking advantage of the fall out between Jason and Bruce, but him being the one behind it? Yeah, no. I already have hard time buying the revelation about Bane in issue 50 let alone making him the mastermind behind an important event in a series he never even once appeared in.

Lobdell has been building up the moment for several months (a year? since the letters plot started in Aug last year) and we don't need manipulation or mind control to make sense of what happened since we already know why Jason did it.

[G-Potion]

Thats part of the job. Every book has to deal with editorial and mandates. Lobdell has actually been on RHatO and Jason longer then i believe any other current DC writer has on a character. We have seen plenty of other books create emotional new villains under mandates and shifts. Editorial is a lazy excuse, thats just trying to shift the blame on the easy boogie man that is editorial.

Lobdell has created as well as used pre-existing but underused villains successfully in the past, some of them carried an emotional tie with Jason. Penguin being used has no relation to Lobdell's ability to make his own villains but rather it was a strategic decision to create a big enough fallout to change the course of the book, and to make as much noise as possible. This is not shifting the blame on anyone because I do think it is a sound decision, regardless of whom it's from. Doesn't change the fact that editorial interference can and have on occasions completely upended his plan. And yes he knew that's part of the job. He dealt with it the best he could. Personally I think readers could also stand to be a bit more understanding instead of laying all the blame on the writer.

https://batman-news.com/2017/12/21/h...ist-criticism/

I will say that, traditionally, in the past, readers of RHATO and Red Hood/Arsenal can notice where stories were set-up and set-up and set-up, only to have the conclusion of the story go careening off the tracks. I can say that there have been many times where I’ve started a story and someone from upstairs decreed that a particular plot thread had to be dropped, or a whole other plot thread needed to be added, or an entire story arc had to be gutted in the middle of the story. Those times have been very frustrating for me—but as a professional writer of some thirty years, I’ve always felt that part of the profession means that I need to turn in the story the editor/publisher wants and not always the story I want to write, or begin, or end.

Similarly, when an editor says “you need more narration here to explain what is going on” or “we would prefer you write third-person omnipresent because so many of our books are written first-person” or “we want you to use thought balloons on this title, but not thought balloons on that title,” then that is what I do, because that is what I’m asked to do.

Maybe more to your point, I love both my editors on Red Hood and the Outlaws since Rebirth. They are both great guys and great editors.

But I had a much bigger storyline to start the series with, and it was tossed, and I was asked to write Black Mask as the main villain for the first arc. I admit that I agonized over that for the first few months of the series. Unlike even a Lex Luthor or Joker (who at least have battle suits and toxic Joker gas), Black Mask has no powers at all. He’s not even someone as inherently evil as the Penguin. He is just a guy who has henchmen with Tommy guns.

I was so angry for months that I had the chance to write Red Hood, Artemis and Bizarro—Trinity level super heroes—and the big villain they were up against was the Black Mask?!

Let’s take a minute and put it in perspective: any one of the three heroes could easily defeat every henchman Black Mask could order up and kill off Black Mask if they started out at sunrise, and still be home for breakfast. The idea that he would last five minutes against the Dark Trinity would be laughable. But that’s what I was tasked with.

Since it was going to be the first arc, though—and because I didn’t have any say in it—I was forced to concentrate almost entirely on character and less on plot (when I say “forced,” it didn’t take much, because my inclination is to always focus more on character than plot). So maybe what you and Batman News and other people are responding to was more the change of pacing from the first series: instead of hitting the ground running with a preexisting relationship between Jason, Roy and Kori (which wasn’t necessarily what people were expecting), the Rebirth had a much slower pace, and the characters were introduced to each other and to the readers with more detail.

[JasonTodd428]

Im getting the idea from you, as you bought up editorial as to why Lobdell didn't create and establish a credible new villain that could carry an emotional weight for Jason to kill or what have you.

I suppose you're right but that not exactly what I meant. Probably need to start writing out what I want to post beforehand instead. Might stop this foot in mouth thing I've got going. I really need to stop posting when I'm tired cause this always happens when I do that.

What I was meaning to get at was that though Lobdell did in fact create several new villains I believe that there was also a lot of editorial interference going on as well, particularly early on, that lead to them not being properly developed as such or, in the case of the Untitled at least, to them being forcibly sidelined. It's kinda difficult to develop a character when three months the down the line your told to scrap them. I'm relatively sure that happens to a lot of writers not just Lobdell since they all must follow editorials lead as you say.

Other Bat titles have created new villains that carried emotional weight, or have tried to. Its doable. And as you just pointed out Lobdell has had the freedom to create new villains

And so has Lobdell. He has tried many times to do so.

[MajorHoy]

I wonder how long this thread would actually be if we moved al the Jason & Penguin stuff to a totally separate thread?