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  1. #211
    Incredible Member chachi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    I remember there was a rumor that there's a cut of ROTJ where Lando and the Falcon doesn't survive the Death Star. There's no evidence that such a scene exists or ever existed; seems to be built mainly on Han's line "I just have a funny feeling that I'm not going to see her again".
    The rumor was that allegedly, Lucas showed the cut to a small group of senior film students from the school, he graduated from, They were all negative on Lando, and the Falcon, not making it out of the destruction of the Death Star, so he went we the other cut with the Falcon making it out. Lucas thought there should be a "sacrifice" to the Rebellion's victory.

  2. #212
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    I'm less excited about this film than any Star Wars film. I simply don't care anymore after the Last Jedi and Solo. Maybe I'll enjoy this once it comes out on DVD/Blu-Ray or download but I'm not holding my breath.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  3. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by tv horror View Post
    I have to write something before the saga ends, there was no way that Luke would strike down a sleeping Kylo
    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    Not really what happened there.
    Not entirely inaccurate though either.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    Technically it was two scenes-one from Ren's POV and one from Luke's. Luke was about to do something but hesitated at the last minute, however Ben saw it as a clear threat.


    It also seems like a bit of a callback to him about to deliver the killing blow to Vader in ROTJ, but then realizing what he's about to do (Although Palpatine kind of pointed that out).
    I personally see the reasoning for the scene as really weak. Vader was much worse than Kylo. He was a mass murderer who was threatening someone Luke cared about. Add in too the fact that Vader already tortured both Leia and Han. So the moment of weakness there is much more understandable there.

    Ben as far as we know hadn't actually done anything close to that sort of damage at the time. It makes Luke a lot less human and sympathetic IMO. He comes off as kind of a sociopath. It doesn't help that Rey calls him out on his excuses being weak. I don't imagine Luke's reunion with Leia would have been as heartwarming if she knew the full story.

    That's what I think one of the big problems people have with the he sequel trilogy. It feels like they tore the old characters down just to make the new ones look superior. That's why I think a lot of people take Kylo's mantra as the message of TLJ. At the end of the movie has a much stronger argument. The only reason he fails is because he doesn't follow his own advice.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    I personally see the reasoning for the scene as really weak. Vader was much worse than Kylo. He was a mass murderer who was threatening someone Luke cared about. Add in too the fact that Vader already tortured both Leia and Han. So the moment of weakness there is much more understandable there.

    Ben as far as we know hadn't actually done anything close to that sort of damage at the time. It makes Luke a lot less human and sympathetic IMO. He comes off as kind of a sociopath.
    I don't agree with your last sentence in the quote. But otherwise, yes. That is the point exactly. Luke is acting like the Jedi of old, and not like himself. In the context of the film and it's themes, Luke, for a single solitary instant which he instantly regretted, wanted to destroy the dark side instead of defend his nephew. He was not acting as an Uncle, who should have wanted to protect Ben. He was acting as a Jedi Master, who had seen the order all but wiped out by the same evil now festering in Ben. Luke was acting out of fear, instead of love. Luke failed. You're not supposed to feel particularly sympathetic to him. It's meant to disappoint you.

    It hurts to see Luke not be a perfect paragon, sure. But thematically it's really important to the film's message. He's trying to rebuild something that is dear to him, and which he believes to be incredibly important to the galaxy. And he sees a threat to it. One which he could eliminate, easily. And for just that single moment he is tempted to do so. To lash out at what he fears, what he hates. But he doesn't. He comes back to himself, and returns to being the Luke we know. Too late, as it turns out. Our actions, and our intentions that led to them, have consequences. And a thing, once done, cannot be undone.

    It sets up the parallel between Ben and Luke. Both running, hiding from pasts that bring them pain. One who has hidden himself away in shame, the other who is attempting to literally murder his way out of his self-loathing. In the end Kylo Ren can't face his past. He's trapped by it, consumed by it. So obsessed with it that he lets absolute victory slip through his fingers in a fit of rage and pride and true, genuine foolishness. But Luke Skywalker can let it go. He can accept his mistakes, his failings, his shame. And he can choose to move forward anyway. To try again. He can choose to confront his mistake. Not in anger, at Kylo Ren. But out of love of those whom the First Order threaten. Luke goes to Crait not to fight Kylo, but to save the Resistance. He makes a mature, adult decision. Luke's most heroic act is to realize that it isn't all about him. Does he forgive himself? It doesn't actually matter. He has stuff to do, and he isn't going to wallow in what came before any longer.

    My absolute favorite thing about The Last Jedi (a deeply flawed movie, certainly) is it's focus on what truly differentiates the light and the dark. On how utterly, almost depressingly simple the boundary truly is. And how elusive that simplicity can be in the face of life. I could write a novel on the way TLJ takes what has come before it and wraps it all up in a neat little bow to say "Here, this is why this happened this way, and it's been here all along." The Clone Wars, the Purge, the Empire. Vader's redemption and even Luke's failures in the immediate backstory. It's probably the most thematically complete movie in the saga. Sadly this comes with some narrative weaknesses which have been discussed to death, and probably will be again.

  5. #215

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    Quote Originally Posted by tv horror View Post
    I have to write something before the saga ends, there was no way that Luke would strike down a sleeping Kylo that destroyed my interest in these films, leave the original three movies alone. I won't be going to see the new film which will be the first time since 77 that I haven't, Han, Luke, Leia deserved better even poor Lando and Chewie. I have no interest in these new characters other than BB8 and Finn and the way it's going Lando says to him "Finn...I am your father!" Please don't end on this stupidity.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    Not really what happened there.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    I don't agree with your last sentence in the quote. But otherwise, yes. That is the point exactly. Luke is acting like the Jedi of old, and not like himself. In the context of the film and it's themes, Luke, for a single solitary instant which he instantly regretted, wanted to destroy the dark side instead of defend his nephew. He was not acting as an Uncle, who should have wanted to protect Ben. He was acting as a Jedi Master, who had seen the order all but wiped out by the same evil now festering in Ben. Luke was acting out of fear, instead of love. Luke failed. You're not supposed to feel particularly sympathetic to him. It's meant to disappoint you.

    It hurts to see Luke not be a perfect paragon, sure. But thematically it's really important to the film's message. He's trying to rebuild something that is dear to him, and which he believes to be incredibly important to the galaxy. And he sees a threat to it. One which he could eliminate, easily. And for just that single moment he is tempted to do so. To lash out at what he fears, what he hates. But he doesn't. He comes back to himself, and returns to being the Luke we know. Too late, as it turns out. Our actions, and our intentions that led to them, have consequences. And a thing, once done, cannot be undone.

    It sets up the parallel between Ben and Luke. Both running, hiding from pasts that bring them pain. One who has hidden himself away in shame, the other who is attempting to literally murder his way out of his self-loathing. In the end Kylo Ren can't face his past. He's trapped by it, consumed by it. So obsessed with it that he lets absolute victory slip through his fingers in a fit of rage and pride and true, genuine foolishness. But Luke Skywalker can let it go. He can accept his mistakes, his failings, his shame. And he can choose to move forward anyway. To try again. He can choose to confront his mistake. Not in anger, at Kylo Ren. But out of love of those whom the First Order threaten. Luke goes to Crait not to fight Kylo, but to save the Resistance. He makes a mature, adult decision. Luke's most heroic act is to realize that it isn't all about him. Does he forgive himself? It doesn't actually matter. He has stuff to do, and he isn't going to wallow in what came before any longer.

    My absolute favorite thing about The Last Jedi (a deeply flawed movie, certainly) is it's focus on what truly differentiates the light and the dark. On how utterly, almost depressingly simple the boundary truly is. And how elusive that simplicity can be in the face of life. I could write a novel on the way TLJ takes what has come before it and wraps it all up in a neat little bow to say "Here, this is why this happened this way, and it's been here all along." The Clone Wars, the Purge, the Empire. Vader's redemption and even Luke's failures in the immediate backstory. It's probably the most thematically complete movie in the saga. Sadly this comes with some narrative weaknesses which have been discussed to death, and probably will be again.
    I don't think any of the complaints are asking Luke to be a perfect paragon. I just can't find TLJ Luke's mistake to be one he made out of love. The speech of a vague darkness is a very poor excuse IMO. It's not a human mistake IMO. I noticed a lot of people ask what we would do in Luke's position. While I'm not sure what I would do. I certainly know I would not be drawing a weapon on someone who is sleeping.

    I just have this wierd disconnect to a Luke who wants to save Darth Vader of all people despite the atrocities he committed. Then having a Luke who has a personal connection to his nephew but not trying to save him. Shouldn't he be wanting to save ihis nephew just as much if not more?

  6. #216
    Take Me Higher The Negative Zone's Avatar
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    If you ask me Luke did nothing wrong. He had a dark thought. As a Jedi, he instinctively pulled out his weapon after he experienced a terrifying vision of everything he loves being destroyed. As soon as it happened, he immediately realized it was wrong.

    Heck, you could say the situation is different from Vader as well, Luke counted on the bond between him and his father to redeem him. A bond that was lacked. Kylo turned despite already being trained by the light and knowing Luke as his master.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    If you ask me Luke did nothing wrong. He had a dark thought. As a Jedi, he instinctively pulled out his weapon after he experienced a terrifying vision of everything he loves being destroyed. As soon as it happened, he immediately realized it was wrong.

    Heck, you could say the situation is different from Vader as well, Luke counted on the bond between him and his father to redeem him. A bond that was lacked. Kylo turned despite already being trained by the light and knowing Luke as his master.
    If you believe the rumour doing the rounds, TRoSW seeks to address Luke attempting to murder Ben. Apparently, it was the doing of Sheev. Who used it to force Luke to doubt himself/go into exile (knowing he could never be turned) and to finally turn Ben towards the Dark Side. Who was considered a "prodigy" of sorts.

  8. #218
    Wrath of a God Xero Kaiser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    That is the point exactly. Luke is acting like the Jedi of old, and not like himself
    Since when? If the Jedi killed every one of their number who had a bad thought, there wouldn't be any Jedi left.

  9. #219
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xero Kaiser View Post
    Since when? If the Jedi killed every one of their number who had a bad thought, there wouldn't be any Jedi left.
    Yoda and Mace would have taken Anakin out back and would have been done with it.
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xero Kaiser View Post
    Since when? If the Jedi killed every one of their number who had a bad thought, there wouldn't be any Jedi left.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Yoda and Mace would have taken Anakin out back and would have been done with it.
    Had Obi-wan not shielded others like the Council from Anakin's darkness, Vader never would have been born.

    Given Obi's dalliances during the Clone Wars and Qui-gon's influence, the case could be made that Obi ended up being the catalyst to turn Anakin dark.

    Palpatine seized on that and twisted him further, preying on Obi and Anakin's friendship.

    Had Obi not been Anakin's friend, he might not have failed him and inadvertently helped him turn to the Dark Side. He probably would've turned him over to the Council at some point before he was too powerful.

    Also, if Mace or Yoda followed their feelings about Anakin, and spent a little more time with him, they probably would've figured out before it was too late that they misread the prophecy.

    Like Luke said, their hubris was their downfall. Luke was learning the Jedi were not all they could or should be and that broke him.

    Which is why he almost killed Ben Solo, instead of helping him. Just like the Jedi of old. Luke was no better than them. But Luke figured that out too late.

    I'm sure we're going get more context on Vader with Palps coming back, too.

    I can't wait to see how and what they add with the final movie.
    Last edited by BeastieRunner; 12-04-2019 at 10:55 AM.
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  11. #221
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    One of the weird things about AOTC is that while Obi-Wan is constantly having doubts about Anakin in the film, Yoda and Mace are pretty much all for him ("The boy has exceptional skills etc.". There's even an AOTC deleted scene which is pretty much Mace reassuring Obi-Wan about Anakin (Probably cut because it was redundant since the hallway scene covered some of the same stuff). In ROTS they're pretty much back to their TPM doubts while Obi-Wan is now the one mostly praising Anakin.

    Then again, this is the same Mace Windu who at first don't believe Dooku could be a bad guy....


    One thing that's never really brought up is Anakin's side trip to Tatooine. He told Palpatine what happened, and Obi-Wan of course noticed his signal was coming from there, and Yoda sensed something was terribly wrong....but apart from that it's never really brought up by the Jedi.
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  12. #222
    Silver Sentinel BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    One of the weird things about AOTC is that while Obi-Wan is constantly having doubts about Anakin in the film, Yoda and Mace are pretty much all for him ("The boy has exceptional skills etc.". There's even an AOTC deleted scene which is pretty much Mace reassuring Obi-Wan about Anakin (Probably cut because it was redundant since the hallway scene covered some of the same stuff). In ROTS they're pretty much back to their TPM doubts while Obi-Wan is now the one mostly praising Anakin.

    Then again, this is the same Mace Windu who at first don't believe Dooku could be a bad guy....


    One thing that's never really brought up is Anakin's side trip to Tatooine. He told Palpatine what happened, and Obi-Wan of course noticed his signal was coming from there, and Yoda sensed something was terribly wrong....but apart from that it's never really brought up by the Jedi.
    They were a little busy being knee-deep in a hot war to deal with the cold war that really mattered.

    I'm certain had Palpatine tried his coup without the hot war, the Jedi would've stopped him long before Anakin even starting to go a little dark.

    It provided the needed cover to conceal his actions, both Sith related and politically.
    "Always listen to the crazy scientist with a weird van or armful of blueprints and diagrams." -- Vibranium

  13. #223
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Some new spots have appeared, one with Rey holding a strange dagger (You can see part of it in other trailers where she's shattering the Vader shrine).
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  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    I don't think any of the complaints are asking Luke to be a perfect paragon. I just can't find TLJ Luke's mistake to be one he made out of love. The speech of a vague darkness is a very poor excuse IMO. It's not a human mistake IMO.
    No, because certainly no human has ever been surprised by something that terrified them and then lashed out, violently. It's kind of what we do. And I never said he made the mistake out of love. In fact, he absolutely didn't. He was scared. Terrified, even. And so he screwed up.

    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    I just have this wierd disconnect to a Luke who wants to save Darth Vader of all people despite the atrocities he committed. Then having a Luke who has a personal connection to his nephew but not trying to save him. Shouldn't he be wanting to save ihis nephew just as much if not more?
    I would argue that his reaction to Ben is almost identical to his reaction to his father. Not in the abstract, but in the moment that Vader threatens Leia during the throne room battle. Luke gets scared. Then he gets angry. Then he gets violent. Then he steadies himself, looks past his fear and does the right thing. And you can argue that Ben being asleep changes the context if you want, but what Luke experiences in Ben's head is no less a threat to what he loves than Vader was. Throw in the fact that middle aged Luke is in a very different headspace in terms of life. He has built something dear to him. Something that was nearly annihilated by the dark side once. Now you've had a vision of it happening again. Yeah, fear leads to anger, etc. Also, Luke very nearly killed Vader. Beat him senseless and cut off his hand. He never struck Ben. He considered it, and that may be damning enough. But he never even attempted to land a blow. Luke realized the error of his feelings much faster the second time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xero Kaiser View Post
    Since when? If the Jedi killed every one of their number who had a bad thought, there wouldn't be any Jedi left.
    Wow, you're a really literal thinker. First, Luke didn't try to kill Ben. Ever. That's disingenuous in the extreme. Luke also had a bad thought, why are you punishing him more than Ben?

    Ok, try this on for size. I'm not remotely referring to Luke's actions, I'm referring to his intent. Luke was trying to destroy the dark side. Exactly as the Jedi of old did. They fought a war to try and destroy it, recall. They may not have phrased it in such terms, but the Clone Wars were a war between the Jedi and the Sith, with the galaxy trapped in the middle getting slaughtered. They didn't think past their own fear. The Jedi feared the Sith, hated them. It was a more general hatred than the fierce burning fire of the Sith's passions, but it was hate all the same. Luke very briefly makes that same mistake. But unlike the Jedi of the Republic, Luke realizes the error of his thinking and would have attempted to course correct if Ben hadn't already woken and the path been set upon.

  15. #225

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    I will say I think the context of the two scenes are very different. Someone actively threatening people you care about is a lot different then someone who has dark thoughts sleeping. I'm not sure we're going to agree on the scene.

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