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  1. #61
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    The only way to save Episode IX, at this point, is to have it end showing it was VII and VIII were an illusion or not canon.
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  2. #62
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    We're still not over the hyperbole yet?
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  3. #63
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    For some people, it’s not hyperbole. They’ve genuinely washed their hands of the ST and would require practical retcons to get reinvested after TLJ. If you find Luke’s TLJ arc an “abomination,” and if TLJ killed off whatever interest you had in the ST characters before, what reason do you have to consider the ST worthwhile?

    I’m not quite that pessimistic. But I am concerned about the chances of IX ending the ST on a positive point, and I’m highly doubtful as to the likelihood of the ST ending up as a successful three-film story. To me, TFA and TLJ have some diametrically opposed priorities and emphases that mean that IX can only really be a sequel to one of them (and thus kind of neuter the other one) or end up as some limp, lackluster finale that begs the question of why the ST needed to exist.

    If IX recenters itself around Rey and Finn and keeps Kylo in an antagonistic role, then already its more of a sequel to TFA than TLJ, whereas if it wants to supplant either Finn it Rey with Kylo, it’s TLJ’s Sequel: TFA does not have any delusions about Finn being a more important character Kylo, who’s strictly an antagonist, while TLJ wants out investment focused on Kylo and see Finn as comedic relief. And Rey either needs some of the promise of TFA made good, or she’ll just be a “co-lead” dependent on someone else, like TLJ demoted her to.

    And the Skywalker situation is really crappy, right now. Kylo can’t give them a happy ending: he’s too despicable as Kylo and too pathetic as Ben to end the film alive and have the Skywalker’s legacy not be burned to a crisp after TLJ cut offense he possibility of Rey Skywalker and TFA set him up as a worse version of Darth Vader. But if you do something ballsy to “fix” this, like make Rey a Skywalker, you’re discounting an entire point of TLJ... which admittedly will happen anyway if Kylo is given special treatment by the script in IX.

    The ST’s just in a rough situation for long term fan investment. It’s 6 predecessors all share one cohesive artistic vision and generally high story quality, while the ST is beset by radically opposing visions in two films, all focused on an idea that the definitive ending of Lucas’s Star Wars wasn’t actually definitive... even though we’re just repeating OT story beats, sometimes competently but derivatively (TFA), and soemtimes in an imaginative but incompentelty execute remix (TLJ).
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  4. #64
    All-New Member Blunt-Man's Avatar
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    i think a lot of people misunderstood what happened with Luke .

    in my own opinion i doubt hes dead , in fact its a cliff hanger like that , that would have people talking and wonder how the f are they gonna fix this , which is exactly what they want us thinking in the first place .

    i think Luke isn't dead and he kinda did a force apparition to appear to Kylo Ren on that planet in the last Jedi i even think him falling and passing out in itself was nothing more than a force power being used if not by him then by someone else to return him to rest and gather his strength for a bigger time is ahead of all of them most of all all the younger characters and luke and Liea before its all said and done .

    i think Episode 9 is gonna be exactly what it needs to be , in both faith and hopefulness , i truly think Episode 9 is gonna bring a lot of people back who were turned off by Brian Johnson's the Last Jedi .

  5. #65
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    For some people, it’s not hyperbole. They’ve genuinely washed their hands of the ST and would require practical retcons to get reinvested after TLJ. If you find Luke’s TLJ arc an “abomination,” and if TLJ killed off whatever interest you had in the ST characters before, what reason do you have to consider the ST worthwhile?

    I’m not quite that pessimistic. But I am concerned about the chances of IX ending the ST on a positive point, and I’m highly doubtful as to the likelihood of the ST ending up as a successful three-film story. To me, TFA and TLJ have some diametrically opposed priorities and emphases that mean that IX can only really be a sequel to one of them (and thus kind of neuter the other one) or end up as some limp, lackluster finale that begs the question of why the ST needed to exist.

    If IX recenters itself around Rey and Finn and keeps Kylo in an antagonistic role, then already its more of a sequel to TFA than TLJ, whereas if it wants to supplant either Finn it Rey with Kylo, it’s TLJ’s Sequel: TFA does not have any delusions about Finn being a more important character Kylo, who’s strictly an antagonist, while TLJ wants out investment focused on Kylo and see Finn as comedic relief. And Rey either needs some of the promise of TFA made good, or she’ll just be a “co-lead” dependent on someone else, like TLJ demoted her to.

    And the Skywalker situation is really crappy, right now. Kylo can’t give them a happy ending: he’s too despicable as Kylo and too pathetic as Ben to end the film alive and have the Skywalker’s legacy not be burned to a crisp after TLJ cut offense he possibility of Rey Skywalker and TFA set him up as a worse version of Darth Vader. But if you do something ballsy to “fix” this, like make Rey a Skywalker, you’re discounting an entire point of TLJ... which admittedly will happen anyway if Kylo is given special treatment by the script in IX.

    The ST’s just in a rough situation for long term fan investment. It’s 6 predecessors all share one cohesive artistic vision and generally high story quality, while the ST is beset by radically opposing visions in two films, all focused on an idea that the definitive ending of Lucas’s Star Wars wasn’t actually definitive... even though we’re just repeating OT story beats, sometimes competently but derivatively (TFA), and soemtimes in an imaginative but incompentelty execute remix (TLJ).
    It will be interesting to see how they address the Skywalker legacy in Ep IX, because it seems irredeemably tainted in TLJ. In the OT, things were more balanced. Anakin destroyed the Jedi and plunged the Republic into tyranny, Luke restored the Jedi and liberated the galaxy. (Of course it wasn't just Anakin or Luke but their actions are the deciding factors in their respective conflicts.) But with the ST, a Skywalker has once again brought immeasurable suffering and Luke is pictured as powerless to stop his nephew's evil (and possibly a contributing factor). So it seems like the SW films are making the argument, whether intentionally or not, that the universe will only be at peace when the Skywalker line has ended. Which is kind of a hard pill for fans of the OT to swallow, since Luke is the hero who (presumably) set everything right before the ST blew it all to hell again in the Skywalker name. The idea of the Skywalker line needing to end is a bit of a nihilistic note to end on, IMO, and one that completely passes over their potential for good as well as evil. Speaking as a fan of the OT, I would much rather have seen a more complete picture with future Skywalkers being good, evil and everything in between.

    Only time will tell how they resolve the issue, but the idea that Ep IX is a definitive conclusion to the Skywalker saga concerns me a bit. It sounds as though the line is going to die off entirely.

  6. #66
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blunt-Man View Post
    i think a lot of people misunderstood what happened with Luke .

    in my own opinion i doubt hes dead , in fact its a cliff hanger like that , that would have people talking and wonder how the f are they gonna fix this , which is exactly what they want us thinking in the first place .

    i think Luke isn't dead and he kinda did a force apparition to appear to Kylo Ren on that planet in the last Jedi i even think him falling and passing out in itself was nothing more than a force power being used if not by him then by someone else to return him to rest and gather his strength for a bigger time is ahead of all of them most of all all the younger characters and luke and Liea before its all said and done .

    i think Episode 9 is gonna be exactly what it needs to be , in both faith and hopefulness , i truly think Episode 9 is gonna bring a lot of people back who were turned off by Brian Johnson's the Last Jedi .
    Rian Johnson has confirmed Luke died in TLJ, or at least that was his intention.

    That said, the baton has been passed and the question is out of his hands now, and there's clearly some wiggle room to argue Luke never died if that's where JJ Abrams wants to take the story.

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    It's pretty certain that Luke will at least appear as a force ghost.

    I'm actually wondering if perhaps Episode 9 will end similar to Jedi, with Rey seeing the force ghosts of Luke, Leia and maybe even Han.
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  8. #68
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    It's pretty certain that Luke will at least appear as a force ghost.
    Oh, definitely. The real question is whether they would actually say that Luke never died or have him return to physical form somehow. Not outside the realm of possibility, though still unlikely.

    I'm actually wondering if perhaps Episode 9 will end similar to Jedi, with Rey seeing the force ghosts of Luke, Leia and maybe even Han.
    Pretty good chance that happens IMO.

  9. #69
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I really don’t want them to try introducing some new threat right now, especially not to try and usurp Kylo as the lead villain and somehow try and get the audience to cheer for the entitled, patricidal Neo-Nazi. No character can be a better villain than Kylo right now, even if he needs some rehabilitation after TLJ neutering him in that role, and neither Rey nor Finn need Kylo stealing their lead positions after TLJ screwing their stories up.
    Let's be honest, Kylo was neutered from the word go. You can't lose your first lightsaber battle, especially when you are being pushed as the new badass face of the franchise. People are always going to make excuses for that fight but a loss is still a loss.

    The second movie he needs help to defeat a bunch of guards who have no force abilities.

    At this point I'm okay with a face turn. Kylo is the only character that still feels like he is growing and changing. Finn is dead weight. He really should have died at the end of TLJ but Rose ruined it. Rey is boring.
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  10. #70
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Although he was never really pushed as badass of the franchise, the imagery of a spooky mask before the movie came out notwithstanding. But when the movie actually came out, from the word go he was basically a newb. He's been specifically and deliberately portrayed as very much NOT a Darth Vader-type, but in the first film a wannabe Vader-type, and in the second film realizing he may be something else entirely. Whether this comes full circle into a fully fleshed villain (I am doubting anti-hero or face turn) we shall see, but its been pretty clear now for that one aspect of this trilogy was building a villain from the ground up.

    Its why I'm pretty certain Kylo survives Episode IX. This might come with its own bit of controversy when its all said and done but this trilogy will not have anything in the realm of the definitive ending VI had by design.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 02-12-2019 at 07:02 PM.
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  11. #71
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Although he was never really pushed as badass of the franchise, the imagery of a spooky mask before the movie came out notwithstanding. But when the movie actually came out, from the word go he was basically a newb. He's been specifically and deliberately portrayed as very much NOT a Darth Vader-type, but in the first film a wannabe Vader-type, and in the second film realizing he may be something else entirely. Whether this comes full circle into a fully fleshed villain (I am doubting anti-hero or face turn) we shall see, but its been pretty clear now for that one aspect of this trilogy was building a villain from the ground up.
    Yeah, there is a problem with that. If it's really about building a great villain from the ground up that means at some point they are going to have to show us. This is the last movie in the trilogy. They ran out of time. The time to show us was the second movie. This is the third movie so it's time for Kylo to lose...again. Rather than see that again I would rather just have him turn into an anti-hero. The actor is good and the Kylo is the only one that is striking a chord with the audience. Not really a fan of the character but it's obvious that he is the breakout star of this trilogy.
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  12. #72
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Rian Johnson has confirmed Luke died in TLJ, or at least that was his intention.

    That said, the baton has been passed and the question is out of his hands now, and there's clearly some wiggle room to argue Luke never died if that's where JJ Abrams wants to take the story.
    I wonder if Abrams will give Johnson's intentions the same care that Johnson gave his own plot threads from the first film.
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  13. #73
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    I wonder if Abrams will give Johnson's intentions the same care that Johnson gave his own plot threads from the first film.
    I'm not sure! Other than the Luke stuff (and Snoke being dead), it wouldn't be terribly hard to pass over the rest.

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Abrams posted a new photo for the filming wrap. Basically confirms part of Rey's look-sort of a combination of her TFA and TLY styles as seen in the leaked pics a while back. Finn and Poe are also there. It appears to be in a desert area, which could possibly be Jakku or Tatooine, or something else entirely.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    Let's be honest, Kylo was neutered from the word go. You can't lose your first lightsaber battle, especially when you are being pushed as the new badass face of the franchise. People are always going to make excuses for that fight but a loss is still a loss.

    The second movie he needs help to defeat a bunch of guards who have no force abilities.

    At this point I'm okay with a face turn. Kylo is the only character that still feels like he is growing and changing. Finn is dead weight. He really should have died at the end of TLJ but Rose ruined it. Rey is boring.
    Kylo didn’t grow in TLJ. He just got an external promotion because Snoke apparently has a hearing problem. He’s still the same tantrum throwing brat he was in TFA... except that TFA’s Kylo was still capable of being scary when he froze blaster bolts in mid air and required teamwork to get taken down, and fortunately for the character and the series, they’re going back to the first creator, who seems more aware of what a bad guy needs than the one who seemed enamored with what he confused the character for.

    And just because Rian Johnson was totally uninterested in anyone who wasn’t a sad white guy consumed by their man-pain doesn’t mean that Finn and Rey don’t still have legions or fans and still-untapped potential. I mean, TLJ tried to reorient the story around Kylo and Luke and had critics falling over themselves to praise it because it was a Star Wars moving mocking Star Wars movies, and *did* manage to produce a career performance from Mark Hamill... and still lost a third of the money TFA made with Finn and aren’t front and center.

    Did TLJ kind of screw up or exacerbate the issues the ST is suffering from? Yeah. But the answer to righting the ship is *not* to take a cancer from TLJ (ignorantly trying to make the patricidal Neo-Nazi with entitlement issues the protagonist instead of the developed escaped slave soldier and the scrappy scavenger girl who already proved themselves) and making that the entire point of IX.

    It won’t fix the ST. It’ll just make it a series of wildly different and contradictory movies with no believable through-line of themes or protagonists. The best a die-hard Kylo fan who’s apathetic towards the actual leads can hope for is that he gets *one* film to be the lead; he ain’t the lead of TFA or TLJ, and in fact both films are heavily invested in avoiding what he *is* as a character for a lead, so he’d just be torching the purposes of those films with a promotion.

    Finn and Rey held down a $2 Billion film with Abrams at the helm. If Abrams figures out how to nail Finn’s appeal (as the normal Everyman who nevertheless succeeds in accomplishing great things while oozing charisma and courage) and figures out how to reinvigorate and reignite Rey (she *has* been damaged by the sexist and incredibly weak writing for TLJ cutting away any momentum for her), than he’ll probably make a lot more money than TLJ and end up making the ST at least decent.

    What do you do with Kylo in this? Ignore TLJ dropping the ball, and show him as an effective villain, then exploit Driver’s skills in actually making a character arc worth his time by showing why he went dark.
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