Who designed the Beyonders?

[L.R Johansson]

Yeah... who designed the Beyonders from Jonathan Hickman's Secret Wars, exactly? Was it Kev Walker? And then Mike Deodato just did whatever he himself felt like? (his beyonders instead look like machinery)

And, is there any way one could possibly obtain the character designs for the Beyonders?

Btw, was this the first time the Beyonders were actually seen? I'm aware they've been mentioned in the past, and that the FF even actually visited their realm once... But I could also swear I've read some anecdote in the past, that their form was incomprehensible to humans, and hence, couldn't really be perceived - only humanoids with enhanced mental and sensoric abilities were supposedly able to barely squint what appear like ENORMOUS worm-like beings?

Has anyone else ever read such an anecdote?

Man... I totally need to get on twitter and torment Kev Walker to reveal his character design sketches for the Beyonders! ; )

[JudicatorPrime]

Btw, was this the first time the Beyonders were actually seen? I'm aware they've been mentioned in the past, and that the FF even actually visited their realm once... But I could also swear I've read some anecdote in the past, that their form was incomprehensible to humans, and hence, couldn't really be perceived - only humanoids with enhanced mental and sensoric abilities were supposedly able to barely squint what appear like ENORMOUS worm-like beings?

Has anyone else ever read such an anecdote?

I didn't realize how much I missed Kirby until I saw the appearance of the Beyonders in Hickman's Avengers. I don't know what I was expecting, but certainly not the images depicted. Something tells me that Jack Kirby would have had a ball designing them.

[phantom1592]

Yeah... who designed the Beyonders from Jonathan Hickman's Secret Wars, exactly? Was it Kev Walker? And then Mike Deodato just did whatever he himself felt like? (his beyonders instead look like machinery)

And, is there any way one could possibly obtain the character designs for the Beyonders?

Btw, was this the first time the Beyonders were actually seen? I'm aware they've been mentioned in the past, and that the FF even actually visited their realm once... But I could also swear I've read some anecdote in the past, that their form was incomprehensible to humans, and hence, couldn't really be perceived - only humanoids with enhanced mental and sensoric abilities were supposedly able to barely squint what appear like ENORMOUS worm-like beings?

Has anyone else ever read such an anecdote?

Man... I totally need to get on twitter and torment Kev Walker to reveal his character design sketches for the Beyonders! ; )

Yeah, THE beyonder was beyond things like 'form' and 'substance'. He was the sum total of his entire reality. He didn't understand things that humans take for granted. In Secret Wars II, chose a human form to understand it better, and Spiderman taught him the necessity of 'restrooms'...

there have been a TON of retcons with the Beyonder since then... but yeah, the original concept had no form that a human would ever have comprehended. It was what it was and it was all there was..

[Mike_Murdock]

There was a Fantastic Four story in the 80s where they were searching for the Beyonders (plural). I've never read it, so I have no idea how they were portrayed in that or if they were seen at all. But I suspect that was the first retcon. I loved the original concept of a being from a pocket dimension that was the totality of that dimension seeing our dimension and being confused by a universe of variety and wanting to know more. It's a classic Sci-Fi trope used effectively.

The Beyonders as an alien race, even one where the Beyonder we know was a baby just coming into development, isn't as interesting, imo.

[SuperiorIronman]

What might work for me is a sort of multiversial population.
Like the realm they exist in is outside the multiverse because to each Beyonder they are their own universe independent of a multiverse. And since each Beyonder can become aware of things outside of them, they are aware of each other but don't find it odd until they come across a universe that isn't a being in unto itself. So all Beyonders are aware of each other and exist in a sort of space where they all just exist unto themselves but can also take note of other realities.
We know the Beyonders can take other forms and that the Beyonders like other cosmic entities are perceived differently by those who interact with their "true" forms. So the Hickman variant could be a mixture of the two. The Beyonders appear as they do in Hickman's run to interact with things on a smaller scale like the original Beyonder and can vary widely as a mixture of form taken and those interacting with it. Which may also be why we wouldn't see them for the prelude to Battleworld as in their natural state we may only see a void or white light because we just can't comprehend everything at once.

That would be my submission for the No-prize anyways. Technically an alien race but only in that they are so grand and strange and all encompassing that they need some sort of form to interact with things. Maybe that even the physical similarities are even default forms and we can't perceive the features of their actual head which would explain why it's kind of androgynous.



However if OP you are looking for the original designs for the run, you could probably just E-mail Marvel or even ask Hickman on Twitter who did them.

[JudicatorPrime]

Slightly off topic, but I wonder if the Watchers have crossed over into the Beyonder-verse to establish a watchpost? Whatever the Beyonders were before coming into contact with the native omniverse, they are now by all intents and purposes part of the recognizable existential landscape worthy of observation.

[jackolover]

Hank Pym was almost sent mad when he came across Beyonders hammering Cosmics, because it was all incomprehensible.

The other thing I thought was mentioned in the Hickman appearances of the Beyonders, was that they had to armour up in our Multiverse, because they couldn’t exist here? Does this ring any bells?

[JudicatorPrime]

Hank Pym was almost sent mad when he came across Beyonders hammering Cosmics, because it was all incomprehensible.

The other thing I thought was mentioned in the Hickman appearances of the Beyonders, was that they had to armour up in our Multiverse, because they couldn’t exist here? Does this ring any bells?

I'll have to re-read those Hickman Avengers books. The only bell that registers with me is when some of the Ultimates had to wear armor in order to survive for brief minutes in the Neutral Zone and "beyond" the normal omniverse outside of everything. My knowledge of Beyonders is based mainly on Secret Wars I, whereupon that Beyonder didn't require any armor at all.

[JKtheMac]

For me, it seems The Beyonder's armour directly influenced the design used for The Beyonders:

Armour.jpg

[Iron Maiden]

There was a Fantastic Four story in the 80s where they were searching for the Beyonders (plural). I've never read it, so I have no idea how they were portrayed in that or if they were seen at all. But I suspect that was the first retcon. I loved the original concept of a being from a pocket dimension that was the totality of that dimension seeing our dimension and being confused by a universe of variety and wanting to know more. It's a classic Sci-Fi trope used effectively.

The Beyonders as an alien race, even one where the Beyonder we know was a baby just coming into development, isn't as interesting, imo.

I remember that story and as I recall, you never saw the Beyonders, just the one from Secret Wars II showed up to meet the ad hoc FF of Ben, Johnny, Doom, maybe Crystal and Sharon? But there were others that were unseen.

Didn't Bendis confuse everyone with an Illuminati story where he was trying to hint that disco-looking Beyonder was a child Beyonder?

[Mike_Murdock]

I remember that story and as I recall, you never saw the Beyonders, just the one from Secret Wars II showed up to meet the ad hoc FF of Ben, Johnny, Doom, maybe Crystal and Sharon? But there were others that were unseen.

Didn't Bendis confuse everyone with an Illuminati story where he was trying to hint that disco-looking Beyonder was a child Beyonder?

I believe Bendis's idea is that the Beyonder (singular) is the world's first Inhuman/Mutant hybrid. The whole thing seems to have been reasonably ignored.

[JKtheMac]

Bendis and Reed's story in Illuminati #3 does not necessarily contain the revelation that is often attributed to it by disgruntled fans. Marvel editorial often tell peolpe to go and reread it to discover this, but rarely does anyone bother. It really wasn't that important a story anyway. Lets actually take the time for a moment.

Xavier claims to have understood something about The Beyonder back during Secret Wars. He claims to have touched his mind and become enveloped by it and before he was overwhelmed he felt that it had something of the Inhuman about it and something of the Mutant about it.

He claimed it was faking being from 'Beyond'. He posited that an Inhuman with a mutant gene may have become The Beyonder. None of that is set in stone. Xavier could have been entirely wrong and misguided. Even the story casts doubt on his version of events, not least Xavier is openly struggling to put the idea in words. The idea may just be his personal interpretation of something else. An analogy if you will. The notion also has some doubt cast upon it when Black Bolt has no memory of this character.

Look deeper and it is probable that Bendis and Reed were exploring briefly the theme of The Beyonder, and what exactly it means to Marvel continuity. There is an element of 'the writer within the work' going on, which was so prevalent in Secret Wars II, and we even get a telling line in the comic as the Illuminati leave:

"There are those who believe that we are just passing through time and space that was created by others for others".

That line was spoken off-panel, apparently by Dr Strange, but because he is not shown and because the bubble is pointing back at us, it also has a subtle meta-text feel about it, as if the writers are using the character who has the most experience of the transcendental, to speak their own words, and tell the Illuminati that they are just comic book characters.

The story is more about the hubris of The Illuminati, making pronouncements upon the uncertain and often nonsensical world around them, than it is about The Beyonder. Notably the Illuminati are shown images of their own ideals and wishes and in the end believe they have solved the problem when The Beyonder actually carries on with little regard for them. It leaves the distinct possibility that Xavier was just projecting that The Beyonder was something that he and Black Bolt could easily deal with, when in fact it was something entirely outside of their understanding or control.

To put that 'simply'. Illuminati #3 is a meta-textual examination of meta-text itself, as seen through the eyes of the characters that are impacted by its out-workings.

[kilderkin]

I remember that story and as I recall, you never saw the Beyonders, just the one from Secret Wars II showed up to meet the ad hoc FF of Ben, Johnny, Doom, maybe Crystal and Sharon? But there were others that were unseen.

Didn't Bendis confuse everyone with an Illuminati story where he was trying to hint that disco-looking Beyonder was a child Beyonder?

Iirc that was called secret wars 3, Doom was looking for the beyonder to restore his mind, 2 evolved cosmic cubes turned up and had a fight with the beyonder, he ended up binding with Owen reece to form a complete cosmic cube as each was a part of a complete cube

on the way they visited several dimensions one as I remember was totally dark, this I think was the beyonders dim but we never saw them

It's been a while so I might be a it mixed up

FF 319 I think

[Biclopcicle]

Bendis and Reed's story in Illuminati #3 does not necessarily contain the revelation that is often attributed to it by disgruntled fans. Marvel editorial often tell peolpe to go and reread it to discover this, but rarely does anyone bother. It really wasn't that important a story anyway. Lets actually take the time for a moment.

Xavier claims to have understood something about The Beyonder back during Secret Wars. He claims to have touched his mind and become enveloped by it and before he was overwhelmed he felt that it had something of the Inhuman about it and something of the Mutant about it.

He claimed it was faking being from 'Beyond'. He posited that an Inhuman with a mutant gene may have become The Beyonder. None of that is set in stone. Xavier could have been entirely wrong and misguided. Even the story casts doubt on his version of events, not least Xavier is openly struggling to put the idea in words. The idea may just be his personal interpretation of something else. An analogy if you will. The notion also has some doubt cast upon it when Black Bolt has no memory of this character.

Look deeper and it is probable that Bendis and Reed were exploring briefly the theme of The Beyonder, and what exactly it means to Marvel continuity. There is an element of 'the writer within the work' going on, which was so prevalent in Secret Wars II, and we even get a telling line in the comic as the Illuminati leave:

"There are those who believe that we are just passing through time and space that was created by others for others".

That line was spoken off-panel, apparently by Dr Strange, but because he is not shown and because the bubble is pointing back at us, it also has a subtle meta-text feel about it, as if the writers are using the character who has the most experience of the transcendental, to speak their own words, and tell the Illuminati that they are just comic book characters.

The story is more about the hubris of The Illuminati, making pronouncements upon the uncertain and often nonsensical world around them, than it is about The Beyonder. Notably the Illuminati are shown images of their own ideals and wishes and in the end believe they have solved the problem when The Beyonder actually carries on with little regard for them. It leaves the distinct possibility that Xavier was just projecting that The Beyonder was something that he and Black Bolt could easily deal with, when in fact it was something entirely outside of their understanding or control.

To put that 'simply'. Illuminati #3 is a meta-textual examination of meta-text itself, as seen through the eyes of the characters that are impacted by its out-workings.

Except that Bendis wrote this, and we all know he loves to retcon or just ignore history for his own purposes. You're giving him too much credit. The only thing that makes Xavier's notion doubtful is the fact that, as you mentioned, Black Bolt can't remember the character. But this isn't explored. Typical Bendis just throwing random concepts out there, "mutant inhuman." Ulysses was basically the same thing.

[JKtheMac]

Except that Bendis wrote this, and we all know he loves to retcon or just ignore history for his own purposes. You're giving him too much credit. The only thing that makes Xavier's notion doubtful is the fact that, as you mentioned, Black Bolt can't remember the character. But this isn't explored. Typical Bendis just throwing random concepts out there, "mutant inhuman." Ulysses was basically the same thing.

Even Bendis has gone on record that the story is less clear cut than it seems. I honestly don't believe he was retconning anything here. He was just playing with ideas and themes. It isn't as if The Illuminati actually achieved anything in this story, and whatever The Beyonder was up to recreating the events of SWII was never explained or explored. He remains deliberately mysterious and one reading is that he was playing with The Illuminati all along. Messing with Xavier along with everyone else.

The Beyonder is a walking meta-fiction machine. He has been ever since SWII. The superheroes are incapable of either understanding him or dealing with him. The Beyond is not of their world it is of ours.

Take Brevoort's statement:

"People really did not read ILLUMINATI #3 closely enough–or else we were too clever by half in what we did there."

Now we could be cynical and say he is just throwing up a smoke screen here. Or we could go back and read the issue, think about what The Beyonder character represented in SWII and how Shooter wrote him. Ask ourselves why Bendis and Reed even wanted to revisit him at all, consider what it brings to their overall story with The Illuminati, and why the editor of that book would even bother to stand by it today when he could just have ignored the question. (Quote was from March 27, 2015 on his Tumblr. He was being asked if that issue was still canon.)

In the less cynical world of other media people wouldn't question Brian Reed's ability to play with meta-text. Or has he become somehow contaminated by working with the 'unredeemable evil' that is Bendis? Pehaps we should read comics with more credit to the writers not less.

If we are going to consider this as form of retcon it’s a kind of deniable retcon. It gave future writers options. Surely we should always embrace retcons that leave things open to interpretation? But, the story is not about that and most people seem to insist it was. That to me is strange. Ignore the actual message about the hubris of the Illuminati and fixate on a so called retcon reveal that is easy to handwave away or interpret in other ways.