Who can beat the Spectre?

[Mider2009]

I believe in Lucifer nirvana he mentioned he created a multiverse.

[The Dork Knight]

To begin with, your point is fallacious: the three brothers are not as powerful as Perpetua. So I don't know how you can come to the conclusion that they are on the same as scale as The Judges of The Source, which, moreover, helped them get rid of Perpetua. So, no, the three brothers dont operate on a Multiverses scale. Only on a Multiverse scale individually : Monitor : The Orrey ; World Forger : The Dark Multiverse.

I was talking about the judges, not Monitors being well above multiversal. But the Monitors themselves are obviously themselves at least on the scale of at least two multiverses. The Crisis is very much canon again and setting aside what actually happened such as AM being described as more powerful than the Spectre's master, it ended both the anti matter and matter universes, multiverses now by the latest retcon

So even setting aside the fact that they dwarf individual multiverses here, just like Perpetua

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/vhxIgMejHM...57qs2_Hg=s1600

The Dark Multiverse is an entirely separate multiverse outside the main DCU according to Dark Knights metal
, which would make the AM "realm" also multiversal in size. Thus it's destruction and recreation as a single universe in the Crisis dawn of time fight would indicate a far greater scale

Or yknow they straight up dwarf a multiverse and Monitor can observe other multiverses. Or the world forger building a new multiverse

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/GA8TNQUmo5...I_RBZlNg=s1600

Or even AM destroying "infinite worlds" Is a lot more conclusive than Lucifer calling his creation multiverse the once

It was mainly explained by Elaine Belloc that the creation adapts to Lucifer. And that's the point : the inability of Creation to adapt to Lucifer would cause its destruction. The point on the cosmology of Lucifer's creation may be contradicted by the fact that the term "Multiverse" was used by the same comic book writer, Mike Carey. Especially since the terms can be interchangeable like the term "cosmos" and "Creation". So I understand your point, but the fact that it is the same author (and not different writers who may have their own view), and who asserts that it is indeed a Multiverse, contradicts this point.

Therefore any Creation that fails to adapt to Lucifer is actually straight up weaker than average creations and not really a feat for Lucifer in the way you claim it to be. Lucifer does not destroy universes with his mere presence

The same writer repeatedly also calls the Creation a universe, many more times, including during the issue of its actual creation.

Certainly we see nothing nearly as clear cut as the different characters and versions of the Dark Multiverse or regular DC multiverse, so at best Lucifer needs Michael to do what the world forger does on his own

[Pendaran]

The same writer repeatedly also calls the Creation a universe, many more times, including during the issue of its actual creation.

We all the same see things like multiple levels of reality filled with cancerous garbage and what have you. The original reality is itself a multiverse and the demiurgic power, the thing that would have wiped it clean, is an explosion of which Lucifer survives, it's not a good tack to try and argue Lucifer doesn't function on that scale.

A much better argument, that people keep ignoring and it boggles the mind.. Lucifer broke real hard with DC continuity and it is super weird to treat it like it didn't, that people in this thread keep treating it like it didn't. As a series it was basically its own special thing. Talking about the Spectre fighting Michael and that meaning anything for anything in any way whatsoever is vastly pointless. In Lucifer, Michael was Sandalphon's prisoner from time immemorial. He cannot by definition have fought the Spectre.

The Michael of Lucifer is not the Michael the Spectre fought unless there is a missing issue I never read that stated "and then on being freed Michael travelled back in time to serve God in a bunch of places." If there is, then have at it, for all I know that happened. If there isn't? Then everything people try to build on the meaning of that fight is without meaning.

It is completely meaningless to the hierarchy of anything to say "Michael beat the Spectre, therefore we can infer..". That's not the same Michael.

[TerryAce]

We all the same see things like multiple levels of reality filled with cancerous garbage and what have you. The original reality is itself a multiverse and the demiurgic power, the thing that would have wiped it clean, is an explosion of which Lucifer survives, it's not a good tack to try and argue Lucifer doesn't function on that scale.

A much better argument, that people keep ignoring and it boggles the mind.. Lucifer broke real hard with DC continuity and it is super weird to treat it like it didn't, that people in this thread keep treating it like it didn't. As a series it was basically its own special thing. Talking about the Spectre fighting Michael and that meaning anything for anything in any way whatsoever is vastly pointless. In Lucifer, Michael was Sandalphon's prisoner from time immemorial. He cannot by definition have fought the Spectre.

The Michael of Lucifer is not the Michael the Spectre fought unless there is a missing issue I never read that stated "and then on being freed Michael travelled back in time to serve God in a bunch of places." If there is, then have at it, for all I know that happened. If there isn't? Then everything people try to build on the meaning of that fight is without meaning.

It is completely meaningless to the hierarchy of anything to say "Michael beat the Spectre, therefore we can infer..". That's not the same Michael.

I was going to point that out, but ah well.

Also, are there any other characters who can channel the power of the Top Deity of their 'verse? Spectre does seem to be weak to that, seeing as he was getting hurt by Ramban using Kabbalah to channel the power of The Presence, as well as the Spear of Destiny's whole......history

[Kaiser7]

I was talking about the judges, not Monitors being well above multiversal. But the Monitors themselves are obviously themselves at least on the scale of at least two multiverses. The Crisis is very much canon again and setting aside what actually happened such as AM being described as more powerful than the Spectre's master, it ended both the anti matter and matter universes, multiverses now by the latest retcon

It was not stated that Anti-Monitor's realm is composed of universes, but was created to "act" like the Source wall. Hence his irritation when his realm was replaced by this one.
https://img.lght.pics/zogj.png

So even setting aside the fact that they dwarf individual multiverses here, just like Perpetua

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/vhxIgMejHM...57qs2_Hg=s1600

The point I expected the most from you, and to which I can reply that Michael, Lucifer and Garbiel existed in the spaceless and timeless void beyond every Creations.
https://img.lght.pics/zonn.jpg

The Dark Multiverse is an entirely separate multiverse outside the main DCU according to Dark Knights metal
, which would make the AM "realm" also multiversal in size. Thus it's destruction and recreation as a single universe in the Crisis dawn of time fight would indicate a far greater scale.

Anti-Monitor's realm is Multiversal in size beceause of the fact it encompassed the postive matter (Creation) before the Source Wall was created by a servant of the Judges of the Source, if I have understood correctly.

Or yknow they straight up dwarf a multiverse and Monitor can observe other multiverses.

The point about being able to observe other multiverses? Lucifer, depowered,witnessed the birth and fall of Creations in the void.
https://img.lght.pics/zonO.jpg
https://img.lght.pics/zond.jpg

Or the world forger building a new multiverse
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/GA8TNQUmo5...I_RBZlNg=s1600

Or even AM destroying "infinite worlds" Is a lot more conclusive than Lucifer calling his creation multiverse the once

I will come back to those points later.

Therefore any Creation that fails to adapt to Lucifer is actually straight up weaker than average creations and not really a feat for Lucifer in the way you claim it to be. Lucifer does not destroy universes with his mere presence

On the content, it remains remains universes busting, even if you don't like on the form of the feat which is not within everyone's reach. Add to that that the point is that all Creation is under the "influence" of Lucifer.

The same writer repeatedly also calls the Creation a universe, many more times, including during the issue of its actual creation.

I hope you're not saying that the Vertigo universe is not a Multiverse (of 11 dimensions according to my readings on this universe, unlike the current DC universe having 5 dimensions). Your only point is that this has only been stated "oNcE", when it was asserted by the same comics book writer. So how are your words more legitimate than those of Mike Carey when it comes to the cosmology of Lucifer's universe? You are making your own headcanon.

Certainly we see nothing nearly as clear cut as the different characters and versions of the Dark Multiverse or regular DC multiverse, so at best Lucifer needs Michael to do what the world forger does on his own

By comparing the cosmology of the Vertigo universe and that of the current DC universe, The World Forger is infinitely less powerful than Michael Demiurgos and Lucifer Morningstar, creator of an 11-dimensional Multiverse. So I wouldn't put that point forward if I were you. All the more so when we know that Lucifer is often considered as second to God (by Neil Gaiman in The Sandman and the new Lucifer's writer Dan Watters). And resisted two blasts of demiurgic power, "the word of fire that builds and breaks".

[Pendaran]

On the content, it remains remains universes busting, even if you don't like on the form of the feat which is not within everyone's reach. Add to that that the point is that all Creation is under the "influence" of Lucifer.

I've kind of wanted to focus on the Michael vs Spectre thing until it gets some kind of acknowledgement that people keep bringing up a showing that means nothing to anything, but I'll move on to this. The place Lucifer destroyed by travelling to it is by definition weaker than other realities as other realities that Lucifer has travelled to have somehow managed not to be destroyed by his standing there. 50% of the reason Lucifer put a separate group of people to travel to that place to get Elaine's soul back was that if he went there instead, kablooey. He himself knew that would happen as far as its comparative fragility to pretty much anywhere else.

I hope you're not saying that the Vertigo universe is not a Multiverse (of 11 dimensions according to my readings on this universe, unlike the current DC universe having 5 dimensions). Your only point is that this has only been stated "oNcE", when it was asserted by the same comics book writer. So how are your words more legitimate than those of Mike Carey when it comes to the cosmology of Lucifer's universe? You are making your own headcanon.

That is not how anything works and when one of your gripes is that the fellow you're replying to is weighing some words over others, you'd think you would want to avoid this. Dimensions in the case of the fourth and fifth dimensions and what have you are basically layers of realities existing metaphysically beyond a given existence, as far as being conceptually beyond the idea of the basic three dimensions that make up a space time continuum as humans perceive it. The DC multiverse itself is a collection of multiple, sometimes 52, sometimes infinite, alternate realities all basically laid alongside each other. The "11 dimensions" of Vertigo (itself a meaningless notion because "Vertigo" as a setting is itself a flimsy idea), don't have anything to do with anything here either.

By comparing the cosmology of the Vertigo universe and that of the current DC universe, The World Forger is infinitely less powerful than Michael Demiurgos and Lucifer Morningstar, creator of an 11-dimensional Multiverse.

Once again, this is not how anything works in any setting you are talking about.

[Kaiser7]

I've kind of wanted to focus on the Michael vs Spectre thing until it gets some kind of acknowledgement that people keep bringing up a showing that means nothing to anything, but I'll move on to this. The place Lucifer destroyed by travelling to it is by definition weaker than other realities as other realities that Lucifer has travelled to have somehow managed not to be destroyed by his standing there. 50% of the reason Lucifer put a separate group of people to travel to that place to get Elaine's soul back was that if he went there instead, kablooey. He himself knew that would happen as far as its comparative fragility to pretty much anywhere else.

I know the context, but I'm not going to repeat myself several times : The point is that all Creation is under the "influence" of Lucifer. This applies to "stronger" creations, even he is absent.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/F6GvT5itKe...XlT16_IN=s1600

That is not how anything works and when one of your gripes is that the fellow you're replying to is weighing some words over others, you'd think you would want to avoid this. Dimensions in the case of the fourth and fifth dimensions and what have you are basically layers of realities existing metaphysically beyond a given existence, as far as being conceptually beyond the idea of the basic three dimensions that make up a space time continuum as humans perceive it. The DC multiverse itself is a collection of multiple, sometimes 52, sometimes infinite, alternate realities all basically laid alongside each other. The "11 dimensions" of Vertigo (itself a meaningless notion because "Vertigo" as a setting is itself a flimsy idea), don't have anything to do with anything here either.

I know the DC universe and you're not going to teach me anything about it. Let's assume (on the metaphysical stuff I agree with), however, the DC Multivers (the orrery of the worlds) is only 4-dimensional according to Mxyzptlk, and there is nothing metaphysical you can say. My reply was mainly to remind him that Creation is not just a universe, but a Multiverse also.

Once again, this is not how anything works in any setting you are talking about.

This is the case in the sense that the last point is about a comparison between the feats of world forger and Lucifer and Michael: the world forger created another multiverse to replace the current one, but Michael and Lucifer are also the creator of a more complex Multiverse. So I don't see how that's off the point.

Add to that, although Lucifer needs the demiurgic power to create, he is nevertheless the second to God according to the writers' statements in my previous post. So I don't see how the fact that he can't create would make him less powerful than the world forger, while the statements place him above Michael Demiurgos. And that's a point in my reply that you didn't take into consideration.

[Beadle]

Just to note, the tone of “and you're not going to teach me anything about it” implies you’re not really here to have a debate but to lecture everyone because you know better than they do so you’re blessing them with the gift of your knowledge.

If that’s not the case, you might want to look at how your words come across.

[Kaiser7]

Maybe I took it too personal.

Yes, I'll be careful next time.

[Beadle]

That’s cool. Just thought I’d mention it.

[Pendaran]

I know the DC universe and you're not going to teach me anything about it. Let's assume (on the metaphysical stuff I agree with), however, the DC Multivers (the orrery of the worlds) is only 4-dimensional according to Mxyzptlk, and there is nothing metaphysical you can say. My reply was mainly to remind him that Creation is not just a universe, but a Multiverse also.

None of the things you said for why are the things that demonstrate that it is. There are various incidents that show Creation is a multiverse. Everything from having alternate realities to a myriad of dimensional layers. You keep bringing up things that are utterly without any meaning whatsoever. You keep repeating "only 4 dimensions!" as though this somehow means anything, while ignoring that the DC multiverse also consists of a huge collection of alternate realities.

I know the context, but I'm not going to repeat myself several times : The point is that all Creation is under the "influence" of Lucifer. This applies to "stronger" creations, even he is absent.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/F6GvT5itKe...XlT16_IN=s1600

That's a single universe doing so. Creation is a multiverse. So no.

This is the case in the sense that the last point is about a comparison between the feats of world forger and Lucifer and Michael: the world forger created another multiverse to replace the current one, but Michael and Lucifer are also the creator of a more complex Multiverse.

Not from a single thing you have depicted. In fact Lucifer's multiverse was specifically filled with layers of cancerous garbage because he kinda half assed the whole thing, and was called out for it in so many words at one point.

[Kaiser7]

None of the things you said for why are the things that demonstrate that it is. There are various incidents that show Creation is a multiverse. Everything from having alternate realities to a myriad of dimensional layers. You keep bringing up things that are utterly without any meaning whatsoever. You keep repeating "only 4 dimensions!" as though this somehow means anything, while ignoring that the DC multiverse also consists of a huge collection of alternate realities.

"Ignoring", it's funny since all the realities (such as Earth-1) in the Multiverse are taken into consideration in Scott Snyder's cosmology, of which he considers 4 dimensions : It is a common fact that all the DC universes are only 3-D Brane existing in a higher dimension, the Bulk, from which Grant Morrison drew inspiration from brane cosmology to create the DC Multiverse. But if you refer to the other realities that exist in Hypertime : it's off the point since it's about the actual DC Multiverse, Hypertime is beyond the Multiverse.
https://img.lght.pics/zuj4.jpg

And before you try to write any off points: it's about Scott Snyder's cosmology that he is developing in his Justice League run. So "You keep repeating "only 4 dimensions!", only about Scott Snyder's cosmology, and it's not as if I was asserting without "evidence" from the comics, or the writer. "only 4 dimensions!" it's a fact that irritates you. But, once again, this is only the case in Scott Snyder's cosmology. So it is you who ignore, or do not understand that the debate is on Scott Snyder's cosmology since he is the one who introduced the concepts in the recent justice league.

That's a single universe doing so. Creation is a multiverse. So no.

"A single universe" LOL

This so-called "universe" is the totality of the creations of God, Lucifer and Elaine. In addition, writer Mike Carey does not have the same definition of the term "universe" : For Mike Carey, a universe is a totality. Meaning that the universe is not just a universe, but is made up of many things: realms, dimensions, universes. It's everything. So, in Mike Carey's cosmology, a universe cannot be a universe if it is the totality, everything. Debunking the fact that Lucifer's creation is not a "Multiverse".

https://img.lght.pics/zoXE.png

Not from a single thing you have depicted. In fact Lucifer's multiverse was specifically filled with layers of cancerous garbage because he kinda half assed the whole thing, and was called out for it in so many words at one point.

In the last point, it is about the creation of God created by Lucifer and Michael.

[The Dork Knight]

I'll get into the other stuff later when I have more time but Elaine having become the Presence noticing something change in the universe that literally no one else does is not the same as Lucifer destroying a dimension as a side effect of flying through it

[Kaiser7]

Ok.

And yet you ignore the point that Lucifer has an influence on creation. Is it hard to accept it? All the more so, if I understand, its absence puts the creation in dis-equilibrium (comparison with an unballasted boat). That being said, it's the creation of God, Lucifer, Elaine into one. What remains, if you don't mind, an impressive feat.

[The Dork Knight]

No its not a "feat" at all since the "disequilibrium" didn't do anything to anyone or was even noticed by anyone except literally God who didn't have to do anything about it

Which actually compares pretty poorly to when his dad left Creation and everything started falling apart, and nothing remotely like that being the case with this instance despite the fact that his own, self made or at least self shaped creation is part of the new reality

And it really shows nothing of the nature of "Lucifer destroys (normal) universes by existing" which is what started this tangent in the first place. Him being so high up on the scale of things that he destroys weaker dimensions by existing is not a point of issue, but it's also an irrelevant feat compared to the Crisis fight destroying an infinite (regular) multiverse, regardless of the ease with which he busts weaker, singular dimensions