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  1. #61
    All-New Member Kaiser7's Avatar
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    Your point? Especially if it is Elaine Belloc who confirms this fact that it is to Lucifer that creation is in disequilibrium following its absence. It is a source all the more legitimate since she was the godess of this creation. An easily contradictory point. I would add that not everyone has a "cosmic consciousness" to feel the changes in the structure of reality. So if Elaine Belloc says that this is the case by being the godess of creation, I don't see how it's not the case. I understand your point as follows: EaRtH Is NoT MoViNg BeCeAuSe We DoN't FeEl It. That's how I see your argument that you use agaisnt Lucifer. Dumb exemple on the form, but still...

    The example is not related to Lucifer : The destruction of God's creation was only a effect due to the fact that it was God's creation. While the scan in which Lucifer is absent, he exerts an influence in a creation that is not his own having difficulty to adapt. What is impressive feat, do not mind. But nice try : God's feat and Lucifer's feat do not share the same context.

    I'm waiting for you to debunk my precedent post, you seem to have time to try to debunk only a part.
    Last edited by Kaiser7; 04-23-2019 at 11:38 AM.

  2. #62
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    "Ignoring", it's funny since all the realities (such as Earth-1) in the Multiverse are taken into consideration in Scott Snyder's cosmology, of which he considers 4 dimensions : It is a common fact that all the DC universes are only 3-D Brane existing in a higher dimension, the Bulk, from which Grant Morrison drew inspiration from brane cosmology to create the DC Multiverse. But if you refer to the other realities that exist in Hypertime : it's off the point since it's about the actual DC Multiverse, Hypertime is beyond the Multiverse.
    https://img.lght.pics/zuj4.jpg
    Just to be clear, is your actual statement that the DC multiverse is essentially the universe where all the main line comics happen, and a couple other dimensions? The multiverse we see being comprised of a pile of alternate realities has nothing to do with hypertime and its things, alternate realities that even one of your own previous scans demonstrated as being a thing within its multiverse just fine when you posted that scan of Myx talking. You are at this point basically ignoring the contents of your own scans, and really it's not the first time in this thread.

    So, just for clarity. What do you feel the DC multiverse is? Bear in mind your own scans you yourself have posted when answering this.

    "A single universe" LOL

    This so-called "universe" is the totality of the creations of God, Lucifer and Elaine. In addition, writer Mike Carey does not have the same definition of the term "universe" : For Mike Carey, a universe is a totality. Meaning that the universe is not just a universe, but is made up of many things: realms, dimensions, universes. It's everything. So, in Mike Carey's cosmology, a universe cannot be a universe if it is the totality, everything. Debunking the fact that Lucifer's creation is not a "Multiverse".

    https://img.lght.pics/zoXE.png
    Twitter from years after the fact is not a substitute for comics. Words mean things. Mike Carey doesn't really have the power to say the English language stopped meaning the things it means years after his comic ended because, from the context, it looks like some people tried to get him to say something on the internet to let them win fan arguments.

    And before you try to write any off points: it's about Scott Snyder's cosmology that he is developing in his Justice League run. So "You keep repeating "only 4 dimensions!", only about Scott Snyder's cosmology, and it's not as if I was asserting without "evidence" from the comics, or the writer. "only 4 dimensions!" it's a fact that irritates you. But, once again, this is only the case in Scott Snyder's cosmology. So it is you who ignore, or do not understand that the debate is on Scott Snyder's cosmology since he is the one who introduced the concepts in the recent justice league.
    Your own scan, of this cosmology, shows a bunch of alternate earths. Why are you ignoring the contents of your own scans?

  3. #63
    All-New Member Kaiser7's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Pendaran;4319679]Twitter from years after the fact is not a substitute for comics. Words mean things. Mike Carey doesn't really have the power to say the English language stopped meaning the things it means years after his comic ended because, from the context, it looks like some people tried to get him to say something on the internet to let them win fan arguments.[\QUOTE]

    The writer's words > your comments. Moreover, he only confirmed what was already in his comics

  4. #64
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Kaiser7;4319700]
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Twitter from years after the fact is not a substitute for comics. Words mean things. Mike Carey doesn't really have the power to say the English language stopped meaning the things it means years after his comic ended because, from the context, it looks like some people tried to get him to say something on the internet to let them win fan arguments.[\QUOTE]

    The writer's words > your comments. Moreover, he only confirmed what was already in his comics
    The writer saying "the word I wrote in English doesn't mean what it means in English." is not a good look.

  5. #65
    All-New Member Kaiser7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Just to be clear, is your actual statement that the DC multiverse is essentially the universe where all the main line comics happen, and a couple other dimensions?
    From DC istelf :
    https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2019/0...ersity-origins

    The multiverse we see being comprised of a pile of alternate realities has nothing to do with hypertime and its things, alternate realities that even one of your own previous scans demonstrated as being a thing within its multiverse just fine when you posted that scan of Myx talking. You are at this point basically ignoring the contents of your own scans, and really it's not the first time in this thread.

    So, just for clarity. What do you feel the DC multiverse is? Bear in mind your own scans you yourself have posted when answering this.
    Strawman: I have never denied the existence of other realities. When I referred to Hypertime, it was to know if you were referring to these realities or those of the Multiverse. Lol.

    Your own scan, of this cosmology, shows a bunch of alternate earths. Why are you ignoring the contents of your own scans?
    Strawman : Quote a passage in my posts where I deny the existence of other realities to laugh.
    Last edited by Kaiser7; 04-23-2019 at 12:53 PM.

  6. #66
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Again, this is a direct question, not a rhetorical device. Do you feel that the DC multiverse indeed consists of many alternate realities or not?

  7. #67
    All-New Member Kaiser7's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Pendaran;4319704]
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser7 View Post

    The writer saying "the word I wrote in English doesn't mean what it means in English." is not a good look.
    The point? Some authors have their own cosmology: DeMatteis: universes = illusions. Mike Carey's has its own cosmology, which does not contradict the fact that the universe he is talking about is indeed a creation. Deal With it.
    Last edited by Kaiser7; 04-23-2019 at 12:51 PM.

  8. #68
    All-New Member Kaiser7's Avatar
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    Why you dodge the question: you assert, so quote me the passage where I deny the existence of other realities in Multiverse.

  9. #69
    All-New Member Kaiser7's Avatar
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    "t's not the first time in this thread."

    The same goes for your straw men

  10. #70
    All-New Member Kaiser7's Avatar
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    On DeMatteis :
    https://img.lght.pics/zakk.png

    So where are your materials that support your arguments? Where did I deny the fact that DC doesn't have universes? I'm waiting for the one who's making straw men.
    Last edited by Kaiser7; 04-23-2019 at 01:13 PM.

  11. #71
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser7 View Post
    It was not stated that Anti-Monitor's realm is composed of universes, but was created to "act" like the Source wall. Hence his irritation when his realm was replaced by this one.
    https://img.lght.pics/zogj.png
    So we agree AM is multiverse+ then by virtue of destroying both matter and anti matter verse in crisis yes? Thereby refuting your own statement?

    So, no, the three brothers dont operate on a Multiverses scale. Only on a Multiverse scale individually
    Thank you for agreeing then I guess that AM is actually multiverse+

    The point I expected the most from you, and to which I can reply that Michael, Lucifer and Garbiel existed in the spaceless and timeless void beyond every Creations.
    https://img.lght.pics/zonn.jpg
    But that is not the point I made at all. The point being made was that the brothers dwarfed the multiverse in their true forms. The Brothers could observe all of it like Elaine and Lucifer observed her fledgling universe, down to tiny creatures on it. In fact World forget literally hammers out universes in his forge. Therefore they are clearly well beyond a "single multiverse" in their scope and scale.

    The point about being able to observe other multiverses? Lucifer, depowered,witnessed the birth and fall of Creations in the void.
    https://img.lght.pics/zonO.jpg
    https://img.lght.pics/zond.jpg
    The point being less an attack on Lucifer's credentials and more on the Brothers being Multiverse+ in scale, contrary to your claims

    I will come back to those points later.
    No need. You clearly agree they are beyond a single Multiverse just by your own statements

    On the content, it remains remains universes busting, even if you don't like on the form of the feat which is not within everyone's reach. Add to that that the point is that all Creation is under the "influence" of Lucifer.
    Ok. So again how this relevant or remotely the same as what started this tangent in the first place?

    Still below Michael Demiurgos/Lucifer Morningstar : Lucifer Morningstar's mere presence can destroy Creation itself, as he did by destroying the mansions of silence which contains other Creation. Only because they couldn't support his mere presence.
    You seem to keep forgetting your own statements

    I hope you're not saying that the Vertigo universe is not a Multiverse (of 11 dimensions according to my readings on this universe, unlike the current DC universe having 5 dimensions). Your only point is that this has only been stated "oNcE", when it was asserted by the same comics book writer. So how are your words more legitimate than those of Mike Carey when it comes to the cosmology of Lucifer's universe? You are making your own headcanon.
    What is this nonsense about 11 dimensions?

    My argument isn't really that Lucifer isn't Multiversal, it's more that his claim for the same is weaker than the Monitors. He sure is, just to clarify, I just feel its more to do with power scaling from Morpheus and Michael than his own Creation stuff

    By comparing the cosmology of the Vertigo universe and that of the current DC universe, The World Forger is infinitely less powerful than Michael Demiurgos and Lucifer Morningstar, creator of an 11-dimensional Multiverse. So I wouldn't put that point forward if I were you. All the more so when we know that Lucifer is often considered as second to God (by Neil Gaiman in The Sandman and the new Lucifer's writer Dan Watters). And resisted two blasts of demiurgic power, "the word of fire that builds and breaks".
    It doesn't matter if hes the second strongest. I could be the second strongest being in this Creation and yet be just relatively slightly stronger than all other non powered humans

    The World Forger creates a Multiverse on his own. Lucifer needs Michael to do so. Which part exactly is unclear?

  12. #72
    All-New Member Kaiser7's Avatar
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    Another straw man. Decidedly, on this thread, there is only that. lol

  13. #73
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser7 View Post
    Your point? Especially if it is Elaine Belloc who confirms this fact that it is to Lucifer that creation is in disequilibrium following its absence. It is a source all the more legitimate since she was the godess of this creation. An easily contradictory point. I would add that not everyone has a "cosmic consciousness" to feel the changes in the structure of reality. So if Elaine Belloc says that this is the case by being the godess of creation, I don't see how it's not the case. I understand your point as follows: EaRtH Is NoT MoViNg BeCeAuSe We DoN't FeEl It. That's how I see your argument that you use agaisnt Lucifer. Dumb exemple on the form, but still...

    The example is not related to Lucifer : The destruction of God's creation was only a effect due to the fact that it was God's creation. While the scan in which Lucifer is absent, he exerts an influence in a creation that is not his own having difficulty to adapt. What is impressive feat, do not mind. But nice try : God's feat and Lucifer's feat do not share the same context.

    I'm waiting for you to debunk my precedent post, you seem to have time to try to debunk only a part.
    What exactly is YOUR point?

    To repeat, this whole tangent starts from a claim that Lucifer destroys Creation by existing (see earlier post for your OWN quote)

    Talking about how God feels a slight change by him not existing and the universe itself being basically unaffected proves.... what exactly? That Lucifer does NOT in fact destroy regular Creations by just existing? Like we have long established by now?

    The second bit just further weakens your argument. The Presence leaving broke his own creation. Elaine not concentrating destroyed her early attempts. Yet Lucifer leaving did not... actually affect his own, now merged creation? In fact Lucifer nearly dying also didn't affect the creation of which he was God, which was again just fine when he left to visit other places. So... if anything Lucifers presence or absence wiping out creations receives another blow from his own creation doing just fine with his presence or absence

  14. #74
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser7 View Post
    Another straw man. Decidedly, on this thread, there is only that. lol
    You seem to keep posting this quite a bit instead of doing things like answering questions put to you, or even people replying to the things you say to them despite a lack of similar courtesy. If you don't want to respond to them, why post on a thread where people can question the statements you make?

  15. #75
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Just while I'm there by the way as I missed it before as far as the "I was talking about Creation, not the somewhat shoddy thing Lucifer and Michael did later", Gabriel, Lucifer and Michael's function as regards creation was that Lucifer made suns, Gabriel imposed form and pattern on the worlds as they cooled, and Michael released the power that made the thing in the first place. Lucifer's role thusly in shaping whatever multiverse Creation represented was comparatively limited.

    We see Lucifer watching that development play out again from afar as he watches a Creation identical to his own rise up and wink out after he leaves reality.

    The comic notes "to see these scenes again" as far as confirming how that went down from his perspective.

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