Jiren vs. Celestials

[The Arbiter]

The Host that fought Odin. Super mega sized Arena.

Jiren is at full power.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Part of me feels like this goes down like it did with Odin.

[Hazard]

Part of me feels like this goes down like it did with Odin.

He forgets about his awesome anti-Celestial spell until his son puts it on his axe many years later?

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

He forgets about his awesome anti-Celestial spell until his son puts it on his axe many years later?

Yea, and then during the victory dance after he lops of a Celestial's arm, the Celestial reattaches it, and then they slag him.

[Nik Hasta]

So, if I understand it right, Jiren should be significantly above the level required to threaten the stability of the universe. I think that's above the Celestials' paygrade, right?

Note the use of the word "should" because it's Dragon ball and of course nothing is ever so simple.

[Username taken]

So, if I understand it right, Jiren should be significantly above the level required to threaten the stability of the universe. I think that's above the Celestials' paygrade, right?

Note the use of the word "should" because it's Dragon ball and of course nothing is ever so simple.

Exactly.

But I thought the Celestials made the universe? (Marvel universe is very wonky with this stuff).

[Jcogginsa]

So, if I understand it right, Jiren should be significantly above the level required to threaten the stability of the universe. I think that's above the Celestials' paygrade, right?

Note the use of the word "should" because it's Dragon ball and of course nothing is ever so simple.

I'm not so sure. IIRC, the universe threatening events from Dragonball involved Energy of Destruction interacting, not just pure strength from Goku

[Siriel]

I'm not so sure. IIRC, the universe threatening events from Dragonball involved Energy of Destruction interacting, not just pure strength from Goku

No.

The universal destruction threat occurs in episode 12-13. The technique Hakai only shows up in episode 59, and Destruction Energy is only named in episode 95, where no implication is made that it was involved.

Indeed in episode 95 post-training Golden Freeza, who's considerably above SSG Goku at the start of the show, struggled with a tiny flicker of Destruction, which makes the notion that that was something that Goku tangled with back then ludicrous.

So, if I understand it right, Jiren should be significantly above the level required to threaten the stability of the universe. I think that's above the Celestials' paygrade, right?

Note the use of the word "should" because it's Dragon ball and of course nothing is ever so simple.

While the weird punching shock-waves are nonsense and could be safely dismissed as a feat, the immediately following instance of Goku and Beerus firing two energy blasts at each other which if they exploded would destroy the universe (which Beerus proceeds to briefly tap into his real power to negate) is fairly unambiguous and stated both in-universe and by the narrator.

Then it's repeated numerous times throughout the show that Gods of Destruction can destroy universes and Beerus and Champa threaten to do it by fighting over dumb stuff until Whis and Vados one-shot them to prevent it, with Zen'o demonstrating the extreme of that by being able to destroy all twelve universes casually.

By the time you reach the Universe Survival Arc, Jiren makes the World of the Void, stated to be an infinite expanse outside the universes, quake just by quietly exerting his power. Kefla upon reaching past the rough threshold of SSB raves that she feels like she could blow away a universe with one blast, and ultimately it's directly noted that Jiren is beyond what a God of Destruction can do.

So the intention of the writers, at least, seems to pretty clearly be that universal destruction is the new benchmark for relevance in Dragon Ball when you get to the high-tiers.

Here are the most common issues people have with accepting it:

Issue #1: It never actually happens. Which is legit, but then fiction and collateral damage. It's worth noting that Super doesn't have a Kid Buu-style villain who wouldn't hesitate on the collateral damage, to list them in order:
1) Beerus was directly identified as deliberately not being careful about the universe in his fight with Goku, with that being the reason things got so bad. (Presumably he was testing Goku or something; eh stops it when it's about to happen so presumably he was always planning to not let it actually happen.)
2) Freeza wanted to try to win by fighting Goku; when that failed he casually blew up the planet and the fact that they need to breathe would have killed everyone besides him, Whis and Beerus if it wasn't for Whis' intervention. Destroying the universe is both massive overkill and directly against his stated goal of ruling it.
3) Champa's arc is a relatively friendly tournament with rules about killing people and such. Also the only enemy stronger than Super Saiyan God, Hit, didn't do energy blasts.
4) While Zamasu wanted to kill everyone and became something of a raving lunatic by the end, he also loved nature and was sad about the little collateral damage his fights caused to the point that there's a scene of him just planning to start planting forests after he's done murdering everyone, and even at his most insane he starts crying about the things he has to do to realize his Utopia so he isn't exactly the wanton destruction type.
5) The universe survival arc takes places in an empty world and there are rules about killing people.
So there's no instance where someone wants to destroy the universe and has to make an elaborate plan for it.

Issue #2: Freeza boasts that an attack he launches at I think Toppo is able to destroy a planet despite being SSB+ level at the time. This does happen, but Freeza at the time was in a depowered state and visibly mentally unstable so it makes sense that he'd default to the boast that's been his claim to fame most of his life.

Issue #3: There are completely arbitrary power jumps in the final arc that lets people who really shouldn't be relevant kind of exist on a battlefield where Goku and Vegeta are. This is also true, but whether the writing is good or not shouldn't factor into how one judges a versus.

Issue #4: The clashes that threaten the universe don't even blow up the nearby planets. Again, entirely true - but that's true of a lot of clashes which we accept on this board, like Odin's that threaten multiple galaxies, or how Superman's punch with H'el can shake the planet but somehow leave the city right next to them intact.

My personal stance on the matter is that if one accepts comic narrations about how galaxies/universes/etc shake or are threatened by someone's fight with someone else, or accept the claims of all the random super-weapons that could destroy planets/the universe but are stopped before they explode, there's little reason to not believe that Super operates on a universal scale, since the show is actually pretty consistent about using that as the yardstick for how impressive characters are. It's not like in DBZ where the only instance where a solar system is mentioned is when Cell is high on his power-up and boasting; the only arc that doesn't talk about universes is the Golden Freeza one, otherwise even Super's secondary material like the Xenoverse games mention that its characters are on a universal-level.

If feats are strictly what's properly depicted onscreen, then we're never shown a universe blowing up (even Zen'o's feat and Zamasu's Justice are only shown to spread to somewhere around solar system level before it cuts away and it's stated to be affecting the entire multiverse), but that's a degree of strictness that we generally haven't applied toward other series, so it seems like an unfair requirement.

[The Arbiter]

Very well said Siriel. Total agreement. ^_^


.....except one thing. Jiren shaking the "world of void" was silly considering it was stated by Roshi of all people and from like only a kilometer away. It's not like Whis was standing several parsecs away like "yup it's shaking over here" lol.

Minor nitpick which ultimately doesn't change how I feel about what you said.

[Siriel]

Very well said Siriel. Total agreement. ^_^


.....except one thing. Jiren shaking the "world of void" was silly considering it was stated by Roshi of all people and from like only a kilometer away. It's not like Whis was standing several parsecs away like "yup it's shaking over here" lol.

Minor nitpick which ultimately doesn't change how I feel about what you said.

Everyone is interchangeable when they take on the honorable mantle of mister exposition. For some reason Roshi is a trustworthy wise old mentor again in the Universe Survival arc instead of someone who's long irrelevant, so I feel we're supposed to take his word on the matter.

[The Arbiter]

Everyone is interchangeable when they take on the honorable mantle of mister exposition. For some reason Roshi is a trustworthy wise old mentor again in the Universe Survival arc instead of someone who's long irrelevant, so I feel we're supposed to take his word on the matter.

Ah, yes. The honorable and venerable Mr. Exposition. *bows*

[Jcogginsa]

Didn't the same "Universe is on the verge of being destroyed" thing happen when Beerus and Champa were playing Rock Paper Scissors together? Or shouting or something. Point being in happened when the two got up in each other's faces, without actually throwing hands. It was in the baseball episode if I recall correctly.

If I'm remembering right that would indicate that the effect was from the interaction of their energies, not just a result of pure power. Everytime it happens, it happens when two beings with God Ki fight each other. It never happens when characters without God Kim like Frieza, are fighting.

[TheLastDalek]

Didn't the same "Universe is on the verge of being destroyed" thing happen when Beerus and Champa were playing Rock Paper Scissors together? Or shouting or something. Point being in happened when the two got up in each other's faces, without actually throwing hands. It was in the baseball episode if I recall correctly.

If I'm remembering right that would indicate that the effect was from the interaction of their energies, not just a result of pure power. Everytime it happens, it happens when two beings with God Ki fight each other. It never happens when characters without God Kim like Frieza, are fighting.

They actualy were punching eachother.

[Cyke]

Even if we counted the universe-shaking or void-shaking feats as valid, the Celestials operate on a much more conceptual level, where any feats of outright physical violence we see are chalked up to metaphor and thus malleable on a cosmic, metaphysical, extremely esoteric scale (see: Ultimates 2).

Point being, shaking the void is impressive, but that's hardly the worst thing the Celestials have faced, too.

[Siriel]

Didn't the same "Universe is on the verge of being destroyed" thing happen when Beerus and Champa were playing Rock Paper Scissors together? Or shouting or something. Point being in happened when the two got up in each other's faces, without actually throwing hands. It was in the baseball episode if I recall correctly.

If I'm remembering right that would indicate that the effect was from the interaction of their energies, not just a result of pure power. Everytime it happens, it happens when two beings with God Ki fight each other. It never happens when characters without God Kim like Frieza, are fighting.

As noted they were actively fighting, and there's no evidence or mention anywhere of god ki having anything to do with it; even Hakai, a technique which uses Destruction Energy that actually does work differently can be overpowered with regular ki if you're powerful enough.

Even if we counted the universe-shaking or void-shaking feats as valid, the Celestials operate on a much more conceptual level, where any feats of outright physical violence we see are chalked up to metaphor and thus malleable on a cosmic, metaphysical, extremely esoteric scale (see: Ultimates 2).

Point being, shaking the void is impressive, but that's hardly the worst thing the Celestials have faced, too.

Esoteric effects have a bad track record against DBS folks, and Jiren in particular. DBS actually presents rather firm feats that unless you have the raw power to contest with someone, having more esoteric abilities will do you no good because they start being stronger than what your esoterics are based on.

For example even someone that he casually one-shot was capable of breaking through dimensional isolation based on raw power alone, and his response to time hax being used on him was to overpower time and ignore it. It wasn't speed or some specific resistance, it was just "Jiren is stronger than time.".

So, how are the Celestials who fought Odin with regards to universal feats?