Jiren vs. Celestials

[Sol_M]

No, I definitely mean "feats", since an average Martian or Kryptonian is handwaved roughly near light speed regardless of their actual performance or non performance of such feats. Not just the power set of "superspeed" but very specifically "speed greater than Quicksilver /near lightspeed" for instance

Pretty sure the kind of handwaving you're talking about is more along the lines of "Alright, this character has no actual feats, but based on stuff other characters (that are average, slightly above average members of the same species) have done, this character could probably do something that is a bit too much for their opponent."

Which is a recognition that humans, Kryptonians, Martians, etc, are all their own species, each with their universal attributes and sometimes those attributes are so much above/below their opponent that it doesn't matter what their actual feats are.

So if a species in a universe can usually bench press 10 tons, then we assume that all members of the species can bench press much more than humans (maybe not 10 tons necessarily, but "much more than humans"). In other words, it's the powersets that are being transferred here, not the actual feats.

Or one could simply recognize that if the character has no actual feats, to the point where they have to be handwaved everything, then they're probably not really good characters to put in Rumbles.

Either way, are you arguing that all Marvel Cosmics are literally the same species or close enough to being the same species that it doesn't matter?

Not the exact same feats but roughly the same yes. Doesn't have to be " passive reality warping" so much as "immune to effects of speed"


Celestials have a limited number of appearances as do most marvel cosmics, so their scaling from Galactus is hardly as stretch since they all operate similarly AND celestials have feats for future premonition + reality warping

I definitely see what you're getting at, but I don't really see the cosmics all operating the same way.

I mean, do Eternity and Galactus have roughly equal control over time? Doesn't seem to make sense.

Then why "make a point about feats" if it has no basis in anything?

Point is about the way we do these debates. Not about the characters in question.

Thats just another way of saying telepathy transfers over but "immunity to speed" doesn't

It's only a no limits fallacy if it is beyond the strongest thing Charles has done. But the LT has no feats of telepathy whatsoever therfore by definition it can't be beyond what Charles has done, leading you to use the qualifier


By your own argument, "power of a cosmic entity" is irrelevant to their ability to withstand telepathic attacks

Yes, but this is literally your argument, right? Being a Marvel cosmic grants means that anyone attacking them telepathically have to show that they have feats of affecting similar beings before?

Your argument, not mine.

By your own arguments, why exactly is that "fine" unless they explicitly display similar feats?

Because I can't really be the judge of that. That's just something people on the board as a whole have to come to a consensus on.

So same question as to Arby, how much of the similarities do they get, who decides and based on what?

See above.

It's just too open ended to have some kind of unambiguous resolution.

My take is that since such stuff does exist for Galactus, combined with knowledge of past, future for Celestials and Franklin and the similarities in their power sets including time manipulation and reality warping , it seems broad enough of a distinction to argue that marvel cosmics in general should be immune to effects of speed one way or the other

Hmm, I get what you're trying to say, but I don't see Galactus and Celestials being at all similar. Mayyybe you could attribute Franklin feats to them, but even that seems a bit of a stretch in some ways.

Yeah, that's not how it works ( Flash's speed steal is not time based, manipulating time is a non factor, deriving speed from time is a factor) and is ultimately edging to a point where say Wally West beats someone like Death because Death has no speed feats and Wally rekt the Anti Monitor the one time gg

Pretty sure Flash does have difficulty with people with time based powers, like Zoom.

But again, as I said, I'm not an expert on the character, so whatever.

And if not Death, then Oblivion or Infinity or some of those Marvel cosmics with just a couple of appearances, simply because they have no "speed "

Or y'know we could start handwaving certain feats

Sure, I see where you're coming from.

I still don't agree that Celestials should get things that Galactus demonstrated, since I don't see them as being all that similar myself.

Edit:

I think the gist of it is that we just seem to be seeing Marvel Cosmics in totally different ways. You seem to think of them as members of a species, or something similar enough that feats for one could be given to feats of another. I view each cosmic being as being somewhat unique, even members of their own race, like gods and the like, are unique in their own way and have their own strengths and weaknesses.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Aside from Reed specifically noting he's doing so by his mere presence, and the attack being noted to not have begun yet, there's also stuff like Galactus looking away and Peter continuing to struggle with reality

https://s33.postimg.cc/spzxau5zj/image.jpg

A) Galactus normally doesn't auto-attack everything that comes in his general direction, nor does he randomly warp reality when he's just sitting around, because he has a great deal of control over his power, especially since the Doom scam shows that he only did that kind of thing when he lost control of Galactus' power,

B) Galactus has Cosmic Awareness, so I'm not even sure that it's physically possible for him to look away from Peter while Peter's in the same galaxy as him and had already gained Galactus' awareness, as your Surfer scan very clearly supports,

C) considering that he has blown up the general area that Magneto and Xavier were in when they gained his reflexive attention from somewhere that want in his immediate presence and his tendency to get into brawls with the likes of Odin and super-Celestials, the fact that this strike force is even capable of getting his attention in the first place is kind of embarrassing for him, and

D) I'm not really sure what reality warping that doesn't instantly take out Spider-Man and can be actively resisted by the Enchantress is supposed to do against someone that is roughly a billion tiers beyond the level needed to tell the Dragonballs to sit down and shut up until he feels like listening to them.

[The Dork Knight]

Either way, are you arguing that all Marvel Cosmics are literally the same species or close enough to being the same species that it doesn't matter?

Yes, the folks whose powers are "reality warping", by your own admission, aka "reality is whatever I want it to be" are close enough to being the same

Exactly what superpower or ability does "reality warping" not cover?

I mean, do Eternity and Galactus have roughly equal control over time? Doesn't seem to make sense.

I would say anything Galactus has done time wise Eternity should be able to do, being above him in the cosmic totem pole with such things as performance against the original Infinity Gauntlet (and its ways of attack) , simply by virtue of being higher up, no specific feats needed

The argument you're making is that Galactus should be able to beat Eternity because after all Marvel Cosmics, even when they warp reality, do so "differently". Since Eternity is not the same species as Galactus and does not have such time manipulation feats, Galactus should in fact beat Eternity. This is where we are at currently

Yes, but this is literally your argument, right? Being a Marvel cosmic grants means that anyone attacking them telepathically have to show that they have feats of affecting similar beings before?

Your argument, not mine.

Yes my argument is that they are similar enough that any ability like telepathy should transfer over, pending on the scale of the same (determined by their standing in the
Marvel cosmic totem pole)

Your argument appears to be that telepathy transfers over but not immunity to superspeed, for some arbitrary reason

It's just too open ended to have some kind of unambiguous resolution.

It's not actually all that ambiguous going by say just the Infinity Gauntlet saga where Thanos takes on Cosmics including Celestials. The Gauntlet by its very nature can attack time, reality, space whatnot. And sure the Cosmics lose, and offer only momentary problems but the fact that they were able to survive the initial clash at all shows the kind of abilities they themselves must possess, in fact their attack on Nebula is described as happening on multiple planes of reality. Again they lost, but to be able to compete at all shows they must have the same powers as the Gauntlet, on a lesser scale (Nebula's victory is described as being due to her possessing the power infinite)

Pretty sure Flash does have difficulty with people with time based powers, like Zoom.

Flash has difficulties with someone who derives their speed from time not someone who can just manipulate time like say Green Lantern

I think the gist of it is that we just seem to be seeing Marvel Cosmics in totally different ways. You seem to think of them as members of a species, or something similar enough that feats for one could be given to feats of another. I view each cosmic being as being somewhat unique, even members of their own race, like gods and the like, are unique in their own way and have their own strengths and weaknesses.

And yet you're not coming up with examples of these unique differences, this unique ability to warp "reality differently". For that matter how does that even work. What exactly are the different ways in which reality can be changed beyond "whatever I want reality to be"

The burden of proof is on you to come up with an example of such difference since you posit they must hypothetically exist. Because otherwise we are basically at "Galactus beats Eternity because he has more appearances and feats while Eternity's only feats appear to be existing and losing to show how big a threat is. And Eternity never resisted a very specific time loop! So Galactus must win because he has the 'unique' reality warping time loop "

[The Dork Knight]

A) Galactus normally doesn't auto-attack everything that comes in his general direction, nor does he randomly warp reality when he's just sitting around, because he has a great deal of control over his power, especially since the Doom scam shows that he only did that kind of thing when he lost control of Galactus' power,

B) Galactus has Cosmic Awareness, so I'm not even sure that it's physically possible for him to look away from Peter while Peter's in the same galaxy as him and had already gained Galactus' awareness, as your Surfer scan very clearly supports,

C) considering that he has blown up the general area that Magneto and Xavier were in when they gained his reflexive attention from somewhere that want in his immediate presence and his tendency to get into brawls with the likes of Odin and super-Celestials, the fact that this strike force is even capable of getting his attention in the first place is kind of embarrassing for him, and

D) I'm not really sure what reality warping that doesn't instantly take out Spider-Man and can be actively resisted by the Enchantress is supposed to do against someone that is roughly a billion tiers beyond the level needed to tell the Dragonballs to sit down and shut up until he feels like listening to them.

So yes, stuff that doesn't really anything to do with judging the incident on its own merit which is what I was responding to

It should be noted that, in that scan, Galactus wasn't shown passively warping reality just by existing, he was depicted as actively warping reality to attack an invading force, because unlike Dr. Doom five seconds after getting Galactus' powers, Galactus' actually has control of them and doesn't generally distort everything around him as his default setting. And Doom didn't either, once he got used to his new abilities, IIRC.

So I can assume you've accepted that the scan shows what it shows and are now reverting to the classic Dragon Ball argument " buuut superman never uses his superspeed, Goku uses it all the time!"

Yes, the serialised upward curve manga is way more consistent than a bunch of cosmic dudes who occasionally show up in the comics as Big Bad or Big Good, and otherwise don't nearly show the same kind of consistency as Dragon Ball. That's certainly a new one all right

As to whether the reality warping effects or doesn't effect people is irrelevant so long as it neutralises speed by messing time up

[The Dork Knight]

I feel like the absurdity of this situation is not even clearly demonstrated by the "Wally solos marvel verse" thing as the implications of the arguments currently being made

We are currently at, Odin or Galactus beating say the Living Tribunal or Eternity because after all both have specifically manipulated or stopped time in expert ways the others have never shown a counter to

So basically the only reason Odin doesn't rule the marvel multiverse is because he enjoys being a dick to his extended family too much to spend time away from them

In fact we just pretty much had "Captain Atom should outperform Galactus" right now because Captain Atom did a specific thing Galactus hasn't done

[The Dork Knight]

And as for this fight itself, its the definition of no limits fallacy Jiren to have a chance unless we've changed the meaning since the last time

Jiren resisted Hits time stuff. This makes him more powerful than Hits time stuff. This doesn't give him blanket immunity to other abilities such as telepathy or even other time stuff. He is merely more powerful than the most powerful thing Hit has affected

Unless we are now giving say movie Dr Manhattan the ability to disintegrate more than a tank, we are not going to hand wave any such feats to jiren either

Jiren is more powerful than the chronal abilities of Hit alone and not time itself since he doesn't break time or warp it just by walking.

This in no way has anything to do with any other ability like telepathy, which has nothing to do with time

[Dark Soul # 7]

Aside from Reed specifically noting he's doing so by his mere presence, and the attack being noted to not have begun yet, there's also stuff like Galactus looking away and Peter continuing to struggle with reality

https://s33.postimg.cc/spzxau5zj/image.jpg

Is that comic even in standard continutity?

I'm pretty sure it's from an All Ages retelling of Secret Wars told from Spider-man's perspective.

[The Dork Knight]

Is that comic even in standard continutity?

I'm pretty sure it's from an All Ages retelling of Secret Wars told from Spider-man's perspective.

Idk about that. It certainly references a whole lot of events essential to spidey continuity like the Death of Gwen Stacy, uncle Ben and the symbiote suit. Not to mention well, secret wars.

[OceanStar]

If I understand the debate on reality warping.

Ce vs O.jpg

[The Dork Knight]

Hate to bring this thread back but I plain forgot about two of the most famous "speed feats" of Celestials

The fight with the Beyonder, they get thrashed but the attack takes place with "billions" of feints and strikes per second and countless levels besides physical that the fight is taking place

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...3344621-20.jpg

The Dreaming Celestial follows Reed's ship through time in the time dilated universe from which gladiator gets his famous speed feat

https://s22.postimg.cc/hibpjjfsx/image.jpg
https://s22.postimg.cc/4e656v36p/image.jpg

He also attacked Reed in the past earlier in the story

Thor specifically states that Celestials bend time and space when he fights the one above all

https://s15.postimg.cc/3n7zpog57/RCO016.jpg

So, for the Celestials at least there appears to be no need for extrapolating feats from others

[The Arbiter]

Hey, props for finding those. I can appreciate the time and energy required to do so.

These are concrete. Much happier arguing with this then deriving feat parity from other sources. Jiren's one big advantage pretty much flies out the window at this point.

[OceanStar]

Hey, props for finding those. I can appreciate the time and energy required to do so.

These are concrete. Much happier arguing with this then deriving feat parity from other sources. Jiren's one big advantage pretty much flies out the window at this point.

Y mean, no props for me!!? :'(