Jiren vs. Celestials

[Nik Hasta]

Reed's speech on Galactus was from Beyond!, which I've never thought was canon. There's no other evidence that Galactus's mere presence warps reality that I know of.

In the original Secret Wars, when Doom absorbed Galactus' power, he immediately started warping reality through his subconscious desires and turned all the walls into his own face.

[Sol_M]

Or y'know Marvel cosmics have the same powerset from Odin up, differing only in scale.

This is probably not the case since all Marvel cosmics don't warp reality, and the ones that do don't all do it the same way.

The TP thing is something very specific, that seems to be pretty common among Marvel cosmics. General high end reality warping though? Debatable.

In the original Secret Wars, when Doom absorbed Galactus' power, he immediately started warping reality through his subconscious desires and turned all the walls into his own face.

I realize that the writers wanted to make Doom appear egoistical, in keeping with his character, but that's just ridiculous.

Just because you have a massive ego doesn't mean you want all walls to become your face. -_-

[TheLastDalek]

In the original Secret Wars, when Doom absorbed Galactus' power, he immediately started warping reality through his subconscious desires and turned all the walls into his own face.

I thought it was the Beyonder who's power he absorbed.

[Beadle]

I thought it was the Beyonder who's power he absorbed.

IIRC (and it’s been a long time), he power-jacked Galactus and the used that power plus Klaw and possibly Molecule Man to power-jack Beyonder.

Who let him have the power until he decided otherwise.

[The Arbiter]

This was the time Franklin created a replica of the 616 verse with nineties! update in Heroes reborn. It's called both a pocket universe and an actual universe right up to where the celestials demanded one of the two (616 or Franklin's universe) be allowed to exist but either way that's more concrete than what DB folks have done



In that case, Eternity or the Living Tribunal would lose to Prof X since they don't have TP feats of note.

Or y'know Marvel cosmics have the same powerset from Odin up, differing only in scale.

I'm not arguing that Prof X can mind control all of reality. Or all of reality's boss.

I'm arguing that a bunch of dudes that are not Galactus do not get Galactus' feats. This seems pretty simple. We don't give Cassandra Cains feats to Batman just because they are pretty similar.

This is like saying you can give a Jackal the feats of a Lion. I mean, they are both 4 legged mammalian carnivores living in Africa right? They are pretty similar right?

Like there have been quite a few conflicts with Celestials at this point where we don't see reality being passively warped merely by existing. Otherwise the Dreaming Celestial having stood next to that city for so long would have caused the citizens some trouble. Unless you are arguing that he was actively holding back his phenomenal cosmic presence cause he's such a good guy?

I'm not arguing raw power, or a specific activated ability. Passive reality warping as a means to overcome a huge speed differential is a bit too specific an argument for me to handwave without evidence.

[Hazard]

Mere physical strength can't protect Jiren from being emotional assaults

Ah, Nextwave. I think I'm going to reread it one of these days.

[Nik Hasta]

I realize that the writers wanted to make Doom appear egoistical, in keeping with his character, but that's just ridiculous.

Just because you have a massive ego doesn't mean you want all walls to become your face. -_-

Here's the scene:



It reads less as rampant egotism and more Doom's power and thoughts no longer being bounded by his physical form so he starts to literally absorb the area into himself.

IIRC (and it’s been a long time), he power-jacked Galactus and the used that power plus Klaw and possibly Molecule Man to power-jack Beyonder.

Who let him have the power until he decided otherwise.

Just for clarity, since this is almost correct.

Doom used Klaw to powerjack Galactus. He then used his Galactus powers to build a super version of his armour that allowed him to steal Beyonder's power while he was being torn apart by him.

Beyonder was later revealed to have been kind of playing the whole time.

[theoneandonly]

funny how that bit from next wave could also describe rebirth to a certain extent if taking a year of you could mean to steal it instead of Aaron spending a year with them. dr Manhattan written by bendis would totally swear at Superman when they confront each other while he spouts about meta stuff like that celestial.

[Sol_M]

Here's the scene:

*context is wonderful*

It reads less as rampant egotism and more Doom's power and thoughts no longer being bounded by his physical form so he starts to literally absorb the area into himself.

See, now in context, that seems much less like bad writing than it sounded from your post. ^_^

[The Drunkard Kid]

That Doom Decor is adorable, like what the Latverian version of Peewee's Playhouse must look like. I hope that Paul Reuben plays him in any Fantastic Four reboot.

"The word of the day is: RIIIIIIIICHAAAAAARDSSSSS!"

[The Dork Knight]

This is probably not the case since all Marvel cosmics don't warp reality, and the ones that do don't all do it the same way.

On the contrary even low level "cosmics" like Surfer and Thanos merely wave their hands and change the scenery around them

But once you get to the "God" level folks like Odin and above, their power sets are literally " whatever I want them to be", varying only in scale

And while they might occasionally try to present Celestials as technologically advanced space robots or Master Order/ Lord Chaos as aspects of the same,they all end up warping reality around them just by willing it. Even someone like Grandmaster can make people come to life and back and Stranger can just create planets

In fact what marvel cosmic above Odin does NOT warp reality in one way or the other?

[Captain Morgan]

Damn it, my post got eaten...

Dork is right that Celestials can pull similar reality warping as Galactus. During the Thanos Imperitive they were fighting the Cancer verse entities on a conceptual level, right alongside Galactus.

They're also right that Marvel cosmics operate on a higher level of esoterics than DragonBall. That being said, I'm still not sure if that means the Celestials win or not.

[The Dork Knight]

I'm not arguing that Prof X can mind control all of reality. Or all of reality's boss.

Why not? The aspect of all of Reality has been beaten before and never shown telepathy to my recollection

How do you reconcile this argument with this

I'm arguing that a bunch of dudes that are not Galactus do not get Galactus' feats. This seems pretty simple.

Eternity or LT are not Galactus either. Why do they get telepathic feats?

We don't give Cassandra Cains feats to Batman just because they are pretty similar.

We definitely do grant Batman the ability to hit hard and move fast the same as Cass, varying only in the scale of the same. Just like we grant random martians or Kryptonians the same abilities as J'onn and Superman, varying only in scale, and above those of Batman, even for the featless ones

Right so nameless Daxamite 101 vs Batman how's that go? Remember nameless Daxamite doesn't have feats for catching arrows or whatever, does Batman beat him?

Like there have been quite a few conflicts with Celestials at this point where we don't see reality being passively warped merely by existing.

There have been quite a few conflicts with Galactus as well where that doesn't happen
There have been quite a few conflicts with Galactus where he doesn't bust the galaxy and struggles putting down similar line ups of heroes
There have been quite a few conflicts with Hunter Zolomon or Wally where they don't solo everyone else or even used their speed at all

Otherwise the Dreaming Celestial having stood next to that city for so long would have caused the citizens some trouble. Unless you are arguing that he was actively holding back his phenomenal cosmic presence cause he's such a good guy?

The Dreaming Celestial was specifically locked away by his own brethren in a way as to never trouble them again. Despite this he "dreamed " Galactus into obesity, had minions build his tomb/complex and escaped it a number of times anyway, at one point warping Franklin's reality from said tomb and then stepping up to explicitly warp reality since we are talking about Celestials' ability to do so

https://static1.comicvine.com/upload...411-image.jpeg

I'm not arguing raw power, or a specific activated ability. Passive reality warping as a means to overcome a huge speed differential is a bit too specific an argument for me to handwave without evidence.

There's an argument to be made that someone like Kal Kent or DBS characters more recently could conceivably beat Galactus or whoever with the huge speed advantage and raw power output

This to me feels like it's ignoring the concept and abilities of these "god" level beings as compared to beings of simply power and speed. Especially when Galactus has moments like these, or adult Franklin Richards moves through time and various realities to confront the celestial threat, or Galactus greets Silver Surfer from the future in the past with "I know why and who you are" or traps the Sphinx in an infinite time loop or gets into fights which herald level folks can't perceive and think he's just standing still while he engages on multiple realities of battle at the same time

Or even the times he busts out multi star system Busters after months of being drained of energy as compared to when he gets killed by star busting and a bunch of marvel heroes going all out on him

The latter seems less indicative of the "godly" status of such beings and their abilities than the former much like the times the Flash gets jobbed out speedwise *while* moving at superspeed like " Oh he's fast but he didn't expect THAT / Galactus is real powerful ZOMG see these energy blasts and everything while he forgets telepathy/ transmutation / reality warping"

My argument is basically, given the uniform nature of Marvel cosmic abilities, and moments like these that DO exist, its more reasonable to treat them as the cosmic gods that they are, for whom speed is a non factor

[The Dork Knight]

On the same note, the time the Celestials tried destroying the earth by.... stepping on it. Sentry held back the foot with Rogue all the while Exitar of all people forgot he could just string together the planet and the rest of the solar system and hurl it into the sun like those two Celestials in Infinity Gauntlet without ever touching it or making physical contact

Yeahh Galactus level folks are sometimes (most of the time) not written as subconscious reality warpers with a different form for every race that perceives them, and sometimes the Celestials who just as one example otherwise turn up right at the outset of the second Kree Skull war before a shot is fired, become unaware of earthling plans right as dastardly Doom and others build their devices right under them

But one feels like the other times are more meaningful and important, especially given high end feats by rules and all that

[The Arbiter]

Hmm. I see where I went wrong.

Let me just say something: I agree with you. I actually am quite seriously of the opinion that great abstract cosmic type entities after a certain level should NOT be affected by earth level telepathy or what not. I agree with that. I am fine with hand waving a uniform set of abilities to the godly entities, varying only in scale. Captain Morgan can attest to this. We had a decent back and forth a while back on the nature of cosmic entities and reached an understanding. I am not trying to put forth arguments that can lead into "Wally west speed steals Living Tribunal" or any other such nonsense.

My previous point was poorly worded.

My point about sharing feats more comes from a level of unique specialization. A jackal and lion are the same in many ways, varying only in scale, like claws, teeth, anatomy etc. But we don't argue a Jackal has a /mane/ around its neck just because a lion does, and it's pretty similar. Both Batman and cass are more similar than dissimilar, but we dont argue Bruce has /body reading/.

These unique traits and specializations are where I draw the line for feat parity among cosmic abstracts. I dont argue that Ego has an edge on Mistress Love in the realm of... love for example. I don't say give the In-Betweeners feats of in.... betweeness? (Lol) Yeah, I don't give those to to Master Order.

Galan and Celestials aren't even the same species or anything close like Martians or daxamites.

I dont doubt the Celestials ability to actively warp reality or fight on a conceptual level. I doubt their ability to do so passively. Without thinking - as a way of overcoming speed issues. That seems too specific a point and too specific an argument for me to personally wave over. Even Galactus seems to have only passively done this once?