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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Darkseid stopped being scary post crisis when he became a villain that Superman on a descent day can punch out. I would have agreed Darkseid was scarier pre-Crisis, but he's been watered down quite a bit by a fair share of poor showing. Not that Thanos hasn't had his fair share too, but Darkseid didn't have a Starlin to retcon them as needed.

    I think marvel overall does a better job of "protecting" their top tier villains (Doom, Thanos, and Magneto when he's actually a villain) than DC does overall.
    Morrison retconned the poor showings of Darkseid in Final Crisis by revealing that those were weaker avatars.

    And i disagree about Marvel protecting Thanos since the editors seem perfectly okay with Bendis having Thanos getting repeatedly punched by lower tier characters like Namor, The Thing, Iron Fiat, Modern Drax and even Rocket freaking Racoon, when they normally shouldn't be able to hurt him.

    This reminds me why i'm so glad Bendys Is working for DC now. We really need a return of the Thanosi to retcon his Thanos stories. (Avengers Assemble, Civil War II and his dreadful GOTG run)
    Last edited by CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree; 08-09-2019 at 08:53 AM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    MOrrison I think is the only one that even tried to capture what Kirby was doing.
    No, I don't think Morrison did that or even cared for doing that, but I see many fans believe that story. It's still a mystery to me. For example, for Morrison, Metron is Prometheus (among other things), but that has nothing to do with the original concept. Darkseid is more Satanic than what Kirby ever showed us about the character. I haven't read Final Crisis in a long time, and maybe I should remind myself, but, as far as I remember, Darkseid's speech in #5 was more like a rock song than what I would expect from the original Darkseid.

    And don't tell me about many different aspects which-are-really-one-and-the-same, because that is an external explanation. I'm talking here about the aspects and avatars Morrison showed us directly and focused on, and not about continuity stuff.

    Perhaps many readers have read Kirby's Fourth World stories through the lens of Morrison's ideas, and not the other way around?
    Last edited by Paradox_Nihil; 08-13-2019 at 05:39 AM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    but Darkseid didn't have a Starlin to retcon them as needed.
    In fact, Darkseid had (the) Starlin, for a short amount of time, and thank God (or the Source!), he hasn't be able to retcon anything about him. His version of the New Gods can't be more incompatible with Kirby's, and therefore it is completely redundant, with the New Gods being Kirby's most personal work, in a sense. Starlin can only write one type of story - his own cosmic tale. Maybe it's not a huge problem that he changes all the characters into his own set of characters - maybe - but when he does that with concepts and ideas ("anti-life" is "death", ha-ha. so obvious), then we have a huge problem.

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Darkseid stopped being scary post crisis when he became a villain that Superman on a descent day can punch out. I would have agreed Darkseid was scarier pre-Crisis, but he's been watered down quite a bit by a fair share of poor showing. Not that Thanos hasn't had his fair share too, but Darkseid didn't have a Starlin to retcon them as needed.

    I think marvel overall does a better job of "protecting" their top tier villains (Doom, Thanos, and Magneto when he's actually a villain) than DC does overall.
    Cant agree with that at all. You’re saying Darkseid lost his threat when he jobbed to Superman? Well Doom jobbed to Squirrel Girl lol! Magneto has gone back and forth so much on being a villain that I question if he even counts as a villain anymore, maybe an antagonist at best. And even then you still have plenty of terrible stories with him in it. Only Thanos really managed to be protected but then you still have silly nonsense like the Thanoscopter and dropping the Cosmic Cube.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Cant agree with that at all. You’re saying Darkseid lost his threat when he jobbed to Superman? Well Doom jobbed to Squirrel Girl lol! Magneto has gone back and forth so much on being a villain that I question if he even counts as a villain anymore, maybe an antagonist at best. And even then you still have plenty of terrible stories with him in it. Only Thanos really managed to be protected but then you still have silly nonsense like the Thanoscopter and dropping the Cosmic Cube.
    The Thanoscopter happened only in one non-canon comic for small kids.

    And regarding the Cosmic Cube, after Thanos pretty much became like the Beyonder, it's hard to come up with better ways to defeat a reality warping Eldritch Abomination than having Mar-Vell destroy his power source with a karate chop.

  6. #36
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Cant agree with that at all. You’re saying Darkseid lost his threat when he jobbed to Superman? Well Doom jobbed to Squirrel Girl lol! Magneto has gone back and forth so much on being a villain that I question if he even counts as a villain anymore, maybe an antagonist at best. And even then you still have plenty of terrible stories with him in it. Only Thanos really managed to be protected but then you still have silly nonsense like the Thanoscopter and dropping the Cosmic Cube.
    It's not just that Darkseid jobbed to Superman... it's that they basically established though multiple showings that Darkseid and Superman are basically in the same league. Which IMO is a step down from what Darkseid was intended to be.

    Yes, Doom lost to Squirrel Girl... but there's no shame in that since Squirrel Girl has also defeated Thanos, Ego, and Maelstrom. Her track record is actually pretty impressive.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Cant agree with that at all. You’re saying Darkseid lost his threat when he jobbed to Superman? Well Doom jobbed to Squirrel Girl lol! Magneto has gone back and forth so much on being a villain that I question if he even counts as a villain anymore, maybe an antagonist at best. And even then you still have plenty of terrible stories with him in it. Only Thanos really managed to be protected but then you still have silly nonsense like the Thanoscopter and dropping the Cosmic Cube.
    Protected? Thanos jobbed to Ka Zar. They would NEVER EVER try that with Magneto.

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member Overhazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Darkseid stopped being scary post crisis when he became a villain that Superman on a descent day can punch out. I would have agreed Darkseid was scarier pre-Crisis, but he's been watered down quite a bit by a fair share of poor showing. Not that Thanos hasn't had his fair share too, but Darkseid didn't have a Starlin to retcon them as needed.

    I think marvel overall does a better job of "protecting" their top tier villains (Doom, Thanos, and Magneto when he's actually a villain) than DC does overall.
    Batman beat up Darkseid in a robot suit. Spent too much time grinding his feet on folks' couches, he got soft.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichelleDiMera View Post
    Protected? Thanos jobbed to Ka Zar. They would NEVER EVER try that with Magneto.
    That wasn't the real Thanos but one of his Thanosi clones.

    Do your research.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    It's not just that Darkseid jobbed to Superman... it's that they basically established though multiple showings that Darkseid and Superman are basically in the same league. Which IMO is a step down from what Darkseid was intended to be.

    Yes, Doom lost to Squirrel Girl... but there's no shame in that since Squirrel Girl has also defeated Thanos, Ego, and Maelstrom. Her track record is actually pretty impressive.
    Yeah, I think in terms of combat ability, Thanos and Darkseid should have their positions switched.

    Thanos should be in the range of Thor/Hulk/etc if they push themselves enough. One step above, not leagues as he's depicted.

    Darkseid should be too much for the JLA to handle in a fight

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Yeah, I think in terms of combat ability, Thanos and Darkseid should have their positions switched.

    Thanos should be in the range of Thor/Hulk/etc if they push themselves enough. One step above, not leagues as he's depicted.

    Darkseid should be too much for the JLA to handle in a fight
    Thanos survived a black hole and fought almost on par with Odin. He should be at least two steps above Thor.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree View Post
    Thanos survived a black hole and fought almost on par with Odin. He should be at least two steps above Thor.
    I meant when he's not being fan wanked by Starlin

    Thanos is a fighter, that's part of his character. He therefor shouldn't be able to steam roll the top tier guys like Thor, Hulk, etc.

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I meant when he's not being fan wanked by Starlin

    Thanos is a fighter, that's part of his character. He therefor shouldn't be able to steam roll the top tier guys like Thor, Hulk, etc.
    Starlin created Thanos. It's not really fan wanking. It really depends which character is Thanos' foe. Starlin sees him and Adam Warlock as semi-abstract beings who can casually interact with Eternity. So i don't have issues with Earth's heroes being treated like red shirts since cosmic stuff Is above most of them. However Thanos making Galactus fly away with a simple energy beam without any power UPS? That was headscratching even for me, although Galactus quickly got up and zapped Thanos.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree View Post
    Starlin created Thanos. It's not really fan wanking. It really depends which character is Thanos' foe. Starlin sees him and Adam Warlock as semi-abstract beings who can casually interact with Eternity. So i don't have issues with Earth's heroes being treated like red shirts since cosmic stuff Is above most of them. However Thanos making Galactus fly away with a simple energy beam without any power UPS? That was headscratching even for me, although Galactus quickly got up and zapped Thanos.
    Yeah, with Starlin and Thanos...it's not a question of wanking at all.

    The best example would be his 90s Thanos Quest, wherein Thanos finds the infinity gems. Super powerful gems that anyone can use...except the ancient cosmic beings who actually have them.

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Yeah, with Starlin and Thanos...it's not a question of wanking at all.

    The best example would be his 90s Thanos Quest, wherein Thanos finds the infinity gems. Super powerful gems that anyone can use...except the ancient cosmic beings who actually have them.
    Because they were unaware of their true potential.

    Say what you will about the wanking, Starlin's Thanos is a more intelligent, philosophical and compelling character than the stupid thuggish monster that Is Hickman's Thanos.

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