The differences between Thanos and Darkseid explained

[CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree]

I think the problem is most writers just didn't really understand what Kirby was doing with the New Gods. They weren't just really powerful aliens... they were beings existing on a higher level of existance. Written as Kirby intended, Darkseid should almost never lose to someone on this plain of existance. He shouldn't just be someone you can punch out and call it a day.

MOrrison I think is the only one that even tried to capture what Kirby was doing.

Personally i think Keith Giffen and Paul Levitz got Darkseid right in their Legion of Superheroes run.

[williamtheday]

You could say Darkseid is more like a cosmic Red Skull than Thanos.

[GrandEleven]

For me the article’s definition and your definition are discussing entirely different things. You seem focused on stories with a cosmic backdrop or setting, the article is talking about a specific type of story. For example Star Wars just isn’t a comic story by that definition and I myself would never classify it as Cosmic.

Bingo.

Just because a story happens in space, doesn't make it cosmic. IMO Those are just Sci-Fi. I think the original definition is spot on. To take it a step further, it's always annoyed me when entities like The Living Tribunal can even have a fight in the traditional sense. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the characters purpose. They are mythological beings, and should be approached more like Cthulhu than anything with more mortal ties.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Uh, yeah, I don't really agree with this guy. I'd say that anyone who says that Darkseid isn't much of a character probably doesn't have a really good grasp on Darkseid as a character. People who actually, you know, read up on Darkseid's backstory and the intricacies of his character know he's quite a three-dimensional villain. There's a reason why Marvel and Roy Thomas wanted to make their own version of him. He's more than just a Hitler metaphor. His backstory (and that of the New Gods in general) is basically a cosmic version of Game of Thrones..before there was a Game of Thrones.

[CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree]

Uh, yeah, I don't really agree with this guy. I'd say that anyone who says that Darkseid isn't much of a character probably doesn't have a really good grasp on Darkseid as a character. People who actually, you know, read up on Darkseid's backstory and the intricacies of his character know he's quite a three-dimensional villain. There's a reason why Marvel and Roy Thomas wanted to make their own version of him. He's more than just a Hitler metaphor. His backstory (and that of the New Gods in general) is basically a cosmic version of Game of Thrones..before there was a Game of Thrones.

Thing is, after the GOT-esque backstory, Darkseid was never developed beyond being that Hitler metaphor fixated on getting the Anti-life equation and never had a character arc from villain to cosmic pilgrim like Thanos (not counting the Marvel NOW era). i'M not saying that Darkseid Is a bad character, just that there are reasons why some people find Thanos more compelling.

[CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree]

Bingo.

Just because a story happens in space, doesn't make it cosmic. IMO Those are just Sci-Fi. I think the original definition is spot on. To take it a step further, it's always annoyed me when entities like The Living Tribunal can even have a fight in the traditional sense. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the characters purpose. They are mythological beings, and should be approached more like Cthulhu than anything with more mortal ties.

Does that mean Dan Abnett's stories (Annihilation and sequels) are not really cosmic? That doesn't make them bad stories though.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Thing is, after the GOT-esque backstory, Darkseid was never developed beyond being that Hitler metaphor fixated on getting the Anti-life equation and never had a character arc from villain to cosmic pilgrim like Thanos (not counting the Marvel NOW era). i'M not saying that Darkseid Is a bad character, just that there are reasons why some people find Thanos more compelling.

I'd say that's all in the eye of the beholder. There are a good amount of stories that you could say show Darkseid developing as a character. For example, Jack Kirby's own Hunger Dogs deals in large part with Darkseid struggling to deal with change and trying to maintain his grasp on Apokolips. There are other examples, too, like Walt Simonson's Orion run, Final Crisis, and apparently the ongoing Justice League Odyssey.

On the other side, some people might say that Thanos for a long time was never really developed past being a sadist, desperately trying to win the approval of a "woman" who obviously didn't love him. Its all subjective.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The paradox of Thanos being a more layered and accessible character, even as a villain, than Darkseid is that Darkseid still feels scarier and more frightening as a villain.

Darkseid still has an air of existential horror and fear to him, whether it's Tom King's Mr. Miracle comics and even now in the Bruce Timm cartoons and so on, that Thanos really doesn't have. In the movies, Thanos did manage to conjure some of that. And that probably means that Darkseid if and when DC/WB get around to New Gods, will compete poorly against Brolin's Thanos or have a hard time overcoming that.

Thanos is petty, cruel, bloodthirsty savage and violent and so on. So he's not a pushover but to me there's never this sense but I never got the sense from Thanos that he is quote unquote inevitable and so on. Likewise, Darkseid is quite consistently established as DC's most powerful and dangerous threat...whereas in the Marvel Universe, Doctor Doom will always be Marvel's greatest villain and of course in Secret Wars 2015, God Doom pulled rank over Thanos quite definitively.

So I'd say that Darkseid is the scarier villain, and more effective antagonist. Thanos is a more layered and nuanced character but that gets in the way of him being a villain I think.

[MichaelC]

Darksied has the creepiness of O'Brien from 1984 built into him. He's what would happen if O'Brien had the power of a god.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Darksied has the creepiness of O'Brien from 1984 built into him. He's what would happen if O'Brien had the power of a god.

Not a fan of 1984 but I get what you are saying. To me Kirby > Orwell. Jack Kirby actually fought in world war 2 and so on, while Orwell spent most of his time in London complaining about war time rations and requisitions, and as his diaries reveal, making private insults to Jewish people. So I don't think Kirby needed 1984 to think about totalitarianism and so on.

I think Darkseid and the Anti-Life Equation is Kirby trying to put across a political metaphor for fascism, while also abstracting and universalizing it. Like his run often tried to show how parts of America are susceptible to fascism, like in the Proto-Trump Godfrey who is basically a populist authoritarian type.

Thanos on the other hand is not such a politically loaded figure. He's basically a grand romantic character as Starlin has admitted many times.

[MichaelC]

I would say authoritarianism rather than fascism. Fascism is a very specific subset of authoritarianism. 1984 was about all authoritarianism, from fascism to stalinism with a strong undercurrent of the inquisition. Indeed, O'Brien comes across as far more of an inquisition type than any other form of authoritarian. Indeed, his statement that we never kill anyone until after we've convinced them that they should love Big Brother and were wrong to ever oppose him is pure inquisition. Fascists and Stalinists are far more likely to just shrug and kill their enemies.

Darksied mirrors that in that he both the Inquisitor obsessed with making you love god via control and torture, and the god he is trying to make you love.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Darksied mirrors that in that he both the Inquisitor obsessed with making you love god via control and torture, and the god he is trying to make you love.

Obviously you've put a lot of thought into this. To me I like to see stuff as stories and how it works there. Once that becomes clear, all the external theorizing falls into place.

In Kirby's issues, the New Gods was focused on Orion and Mr. Miracle. Later on, Darkseid became a bad guy for Superman to punch against.

When the stories are centered on Orion and Scott, Darkseid is a metaphor an internal and external darkness. Orion is the child of Darkseid but he is raised by New Genesis to oppose him, Scott Free was raised in Apokolips and escaped. So for both of them, Darkseid is something inside them and something outside them they have to fight. Against Superman, Darkseid is an alien invader. Superman and Darkseid would be Superman and Darkseid without each other in their lives, so the story becomes about Darkseid's attempt to take over everything and Superman being the only who can stop him, albeit with the risk, as in the DCAU Cartoons, that Superman loses something of himself in that struggle.

Metaphorically you could say, in the case of Orion and Miracle it's about rejecting and overcoming fascist genes and fascist upbringing and ideology, while for Superman it's about not losing too much of yourself in the fight against evil.

[CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree]

The paradox of Thanos being a more layered and accessible character, even as a villain, than Darkseid is that Darkseid still feels scarier and more frightening as a villain.

Darkseid still has an air of existential horror and fear to him, whether it's Tom King's Mr. Miracle comics and even now in the Bruce Timm cartoons and so on, that Thanos really doesn't have. In the movies, Thanos did manage to conjure some of that. And that probably means that Darkseid if and when DC/WB get around to New Gods, will compete poorly against Brolin's Thanos or have a hard time overcoming that.

Thanos is petty, cruel, bloodthirsty savage and violent and so on. So he's not a pushover but to me there's never this sense but I never got the sense from Thanos that he is quote unquote inevitable and so on. Likewise, Darkseid is quite consistently established as DC's most powerful and dangerous threat...whereas in the Marvel Universe, Doctor Doom will always be Marvel's greatest villain and of course in Secret Wars 2015, God Doom pulled rank over Thanos quite definitively.

So I'd say that Darkseid is the scarier villain, and more effective antagonist. Thanos is a more layered and nuanced character but that gets in the way of him being a villain I think.

Thanos Is not savage and violent in Jim Starlin's stories, he's actually a smart strategist with sophisticated dialogue. That thuggish trait was popularized by Hickman, who i think built upon Thanos' role in DnA's Thanos Imperative. DnA sort of regressed Thanos into a thuggish brute with anger issues due to being forcefully ressurected and rejected by Mistress Death again, although he still used his cunning to defeat Evil Mar-Vell and the entire Cancerverse and he was willing to cooperate with the GOTG.

[MichaelC]

Also, Darksied is a theocrat, not a fascist. Fascism is not a synonym for all forms of authoritarianism. Plenty of dictatorships have been theocratic, monarchist, or Stalinist. The fusion of corporate and governmental power inherent in fascism isn't even possible on Apokalips, an absolute theocracy under the rule of an actual god.

[XPac]

The paradox of Thanos being a more layered and accessible character, even as a villain, than Darkseid is that Darkseid still feels scarier and more frightening as a villain.

Darkseid still has an air of existential horror and fear to him, whether it's Tom King's Mr. Miracle comics and even now in the Bruce Timm cartoons and so on, that Thanos really doesn't have. In the movies, Thanos did manage to conjure some of that. And that probably means that Darkseid if and when DC/WB get around to New Gods, will compete poorly against Brolin's Thanos or have a hard time overcoming that.

Thanos is petty, cruel, bloodthirsty savage and violent and so on. So he's not a pushover but to me there's never this sense but I never got the sense from Thanos that he is quote unquote inevitable and so on. Likewise, Darkseid is quite consistently established as DC's most powerful and dangerous threat...whereas in the Marvel Universe, Doctor Doom will always be Marvel's greatest villain and of course in Secret Wars 2015, God Doom pulled rank over Thanos quite definitively.

So I'd say that Darkseid is the scarier villain, and more effective antagonist. Thanos is a more layered and nuanced character but that gets in the way of him being a villain I think.

Darkseid stopped being scary post crisis when he became a villain that Superman on a descent day can punch out. I would have agreed Darkseid was scarier pre-Crisis, but he's been watered down quite a bit by a fair share of poor showing. Not that Thanos hasn't had his fair share too, but Darkseid didn't have a Starlin to retcon them as needed.

I think marvel overall does a better job of "protecting" their top tier villains (Doom, Thanos, and Magneto when he's actually a villain) than DC does overall.