Only one reason I think Perez made a bad choice with the Amazons

[Fuzzy Mittens]

Exactly.

For myself, I personally prefer the more mythic-magical Amazons over the technological ones; to me the former simply seems more fitting and provides a more cohesive society and history. The technological Amazons seems to require something like Marston's attitude of the superiority of women, though if some writer can present such a society and accomplish it in some other way, I certainly wouldn't say no. And Pérez's run certainly resonated with many and gave a rich matter for later stories, to a large degree because he deliberately choose to play up the mythological connections.

I think many of the later issues with Wonder Woman post-crisis arose partly because of the decisions that Pérez made, but he only provided the tools of mythology. Other writers could have chosen to explore and depict Amazon society in other ways in those they did, even within that mythical framework, and try to create an advanced society that is advanced in ways that we do not necessarily recognise. (This latter is an issue that many science fiction authors have engaged with, with differing results. Especially Polish author Stanislaw Lem made it a specialty. Here Marvel chooses the easy and safe way with Wakanda.)

To me, the core of the Amazons doesn't lie in if they are magical or technological. To me the core lies in them being a healthy and supportive all-female society that could raise a person like Diana. That's why I find the Pérez version, the Simone version, the Jimenez version, the Rucka version, or the Jenkins version all able to fit Marston's initial vision. It's also why I vehemently reject Azzarello's version.

I suppose personally I would have to consider the DCs Amazons core to be the ideal that these women without men and war around, were able to create a true paradise. A society that was a great utopia that far surpassed the civilization beyond its shores. Its a central concept to the Amazons that speaks to what they are as a society and informs everything that Wonder Woman is aspiring to do for the world. Unlike other heroes who are trying to make the world a better place in an abstract sense, Wonder Woman has lived in a utopia and knows that it is possible for humanity to achieve such lofty goals.

Marstons background was that of a professor who taught at universities and was a feminist in a time period where women getting an education was frowned upon with multiple individuals loudly decrying this and insisting that women learning to think would bring about the end to civilization. In a society where great inventors like Ada Lovelace, Margaret Knight, Lise Meitner, and Martha Coston would not be credited for their work and treated as frauds because women are supposedly mentally incapable of doing anything.
This informed Marstons depiction of Paradise Island as a utopia of higher knowledge and served as a rebuttal for a society that denied the possibility that women could advance society.

So what one defines as a utopia can certainly be a factor in this because while for some Perez's vision is certainly a utopia, for others it could be seen as a step backwards and to some even be seen as a vindication of claims made by those that women being capable and educated would end civilization. (Though honestly Azzarellos is the only take is the only one which is an outright denial of this.)

Personally I enjoy the higher technology side of things since it offered more opportunities for the Amazons to become involved in Wonder Womans stories with Wonder Woman using her mental radio to maintain communication with her mother and the Amazons of the island. Or being able to go back to the island for help, leading to Paula and Mala teaming up to give the invisible plane a computer which responds to mental commands. Though I admit that I would give up that utility for the return of Transformation island and the concept that the Amazons have a separate island which serves to reform criminals and make them productive members of society once more.

Oh and the kangaroos. There is no excuse for the island not having kangaroos. That is one nitpick of Perez's run that I wont let go.

[kjn]

Oh and the kangaroos. There is no excuse for the island not having kangaroos. That is one nitpick of Perez's run that I wont let go.

Batman (2016-) 040-015.jpg

You and Diana both.

[SiegePerilous02]

I said living in old buildings and caves I never said they lived exclusively in caves.

You said that Jenkins wanted them to not live in buildings that much and use caves, which certainly sounds like you believed they lived exclusively in caves. If you don't think they live exclusively in caves...what is the problem exactly? They have buildings they constructed and live in those. The architecture of the buildings doesn't even look different from the buildings in Marston's run, or Perez's run, or Rucka's run. Who cares about some architecture in some caves.

You are just running around in circles, if I bring technology you will bring the magic based Amazons from Perez, Rebirth and Justice League animated series to defend the movie
If I state there was not much magic in the movie like comics you will jump back Marston WW saying how Amazons don't have magic or sorcerers and instead used Horses

I'm pointing out that the source material has changed over the years and the movie can take inspiration from whatever it wants to do its own take. That's how adaptations work. And you bring up other parts of the WW mythos as examples, but get facts wrong or make baseless speculation. You mention that Hephaestus made all their weapons in the Perez run as proof that the Gods gave them all their stuff in the movies, but the former is factually incorrect if you read the comics, and the latter is nothing more than just not wanting to give the film Amazons credit for anything just because they are not living up to the standards you think they should.

If you think the Amazons are not using enough magic, please point out some comics where they have a magic heavy society outside of priestesses. They rely on tech or pray to the Gods for help most of the time.

Marston Diana made Invisible Jet, Purple ray( A device that can bring dead people back ) and you don't think that Diana could crack a stupid encryption.

Golden Age Diana probably could crack the encryption, but she was written in the 1940s so that wasn't written, and in the 70 plus years since she's been out of Marston's hands she hasn't been shown being able to do that. She and the superhero community at large are likely to rely on somebody like Oracle, Cyborg or Batman to do it, or in her case somebody like Steve or Etta than do it herself. If she's not known for doing it in the comics, what point is there for movie Diana to suddenly be able to do it?

This all came about with Post-Crisis wanting to remove the Sci-Fi elements from the WW mythos to make it more consistently a Greek mythology based franchise, and there was no need for an Invisible Jet when Diana could simply fly and no need for a Purple Ray when they could just pray to the Gods for healing. So that's two inventions of Diana's that are unnecessary right there. At least Jenkins featured Epione healing Steve without the Gods even if it was more mystical than tech.

These Amazons are heavily inspired by the new 52 Amazons without the rape, murder and selling male babies part. That is the reason the The Amazons in the movie neither have advanced technology nor advanced magic and is stuck in 300 BC.

So you are basically admitting that they are not like the New 52 Amazons at all, because all those things defined them. They are like the Perez Amazons, not the New 52 ones. And the Perez Amazons were a take that lasted for a few decades. And despite the different takes, they acted as all female society that raised Diana and trained her to be a hero and instilled her with the morals that would guide her. The film captured that, and that is more important than the specifics of the Amazon culture when the source material has offered wildly different takes on it to begin with.

[Geraldofrivia]

I suppose personally I would have to consider the DCs Amazons core to be the ideal that these women without men and war around, were able to create a true paradise. A society that was a great utopia that far surpassed the civilization beyond its shores. Its a central concept to the Amazons that speaks to what they are as a society and informs everything that Wonder Woman is aspiring to do for the world. Unlike other heroes who are trying to make the world a better place in an abstract sense, Wonder Woman has lived in a utopia and knows that it is possible for humanity to achieve such lofty goals.

Marstons background was that of a professor who taught at universities and was a feminist in a time period where women getting an education was frowned upon with multiple individuals loudly decrying this and insisting that women learning to think would bring about the end to civilization. In a society where great inventors like Ada Lovelace, Margaret Knight, Lise Meitner, and Martha Coston would not be credited for their work and treated as frauds because women are supposedly mentally incapable of doing anything.
This informed Marstons depiction of Paradise Island as a utopia of higher knowledge and served as a rebuttal for a society that denied the possibility that women could advance society.

So what one defines as a utopia can certainly be a factor in this because while for some Perez's vision is certainly a utopia, for others it could be seen as a step backwards and to some even be seen as a vindication of claims made by those that women being capable and educated would end civilization. (Though honestly Azzarellos is the only take is the only one which is an outright denial of this.)

Personally I enjoy the higher technology side of things since it offered more opportunities for the Amazons to become involved in Wonder Womans stories with Wonder Woman using her mental radio to maintain communication with her mother and the Amazons of the island. Or being able to go back to the island for help, leading to Paula and Mala teaming up to give the invisible plane a computer which responds to mental commands. Though I admit that I would give up that utility for the return of Transformation island and the concept that the Amazons have a separate island which serves to reform criminals and make them productive members of society once more.

Oh and the kangaroos. There is no excuse for the island not having kangaroos. That is one nitpick of Perez's run that I wont let go.

Well said, Sir! I am not keen on Kangaroos. I would like Pegasus, Unicorns or even Dragons as Amazon pets.

[DrNewGod]

Disclaimer: I'm not the best-read participant on this thread. I've read the posts. I've wrestled with my thoughts. Catching up on Rucka's WW Rebirth has solidified my opinions.

Perez (absolutely love ya dude)' Wonder Woman reboot undermined Diana by undermining the Amazons' agency. Since CoIE, they have not been masters of their fate, nor of science. They've been pawns of Divine Powers who (at best) react to Outside Innovations with their Divine Gifts, rather than Leading The Curve.

In other words, since Crisis (30 years ago), Wonder Woman has been written to make men comfortable instead of empowering women.

[mathew101281]

I’m more of a fan of more magical Amazon’s. I feel their origin and aesthetic lends itself more to magic then tech. I also understand the whole” isolationist societies tend to stagnate rather then progress” argument. I also realize that living in paradise also tends to stunt technological progress. It also never made sense to me that the amazons would build a plane. Every depiction of their island I’ve ever seen seemed to depict it as a really small island. One hardly big enough to warrant building a plane to get across. To me a magical boat would make more sense since they are surrounded by water. The purple healing Ray seems more New Age magical then sci-fi to me as well.

[Geraldofrivia]

I’m more of a fan of more magical Amazon’s. I feel their origin and aesthetic lends itself more to magic then tech. I also understand the whole” isolationist societies tend to stagnate rather than progress” argument. I also realize that living in paradise also tends to stunt technological progress. It also never made sense to me that the Amazons would build a plane. Every depiction of their island I’ve ever seen seemed to depict it as a really small island. One hardly big enough to warrant building a plane to get across. To me a magical boat would make more sense since they are surrounded by water. The purple healing Ray seems more New Age magical then sci-fi to me as well.

The plane was made to the sent the champion of Amazon to Man's world not for Amazons to use it to travel inside Island. There is only one invisible Jet in Wonder Woman comics.

[Agent Z]

You could compromise and go with magiteck, magic that simulates technology.

[Jokerz79]

I'd love to see this version of Themyscira on screen https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20161126035649

[Fuzzy Mittens]

I'd love to see this version of Themyscira on screen https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20161126035649

Its easily my favorite take on the island. A shame a certain writer went and had Hera destroy it...>_>

[Geraldofrivia]

Its easily my favorite take on the island. A shame a certain writer went and had Hera destroy it...>_>

Me too, it would have been like Avatar. This is what Paradise should look like.

[AmiMizuno]

I wonder how many Islands should be around Paradise Island? I mean the floating Island could be used for special events on people training.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

I wonder how many Islands should be around Paradise Island? I mean the floating Island could be used for special events on people training.

I say stick it in an archipeligo. You can go with old mainstays like Transformation Island and Knowledge Island and those additional islands which were added during the advanced isle period such as the embassy one.
And you could also add some others which could house threats and other peoples which was a thing in the silver age.