Does the Bat-Family deplete Batman's power and charm?

[Arsenal]

Since Bruce will never make any real progress with his war on crime (cause... you know... comics), I think showing that he’s inspired others to join his crusade and to stand up against the monsters of Gotham is the best alternative available to show it’s not a failure. Plus I don’t know how long an isolated Bruce running solo in Gotham can go before it gets stale.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think people forget that Bruce wasn't completely comfortable with Tim as Robin until the end of Knightfall. It's not like he immediately jumped at the chance to get a new Robin or was in the market for a new sidekick only days after Jason died.

He shouldn't need convincing or to eventually become comfortable with the idea of getting another sidekick. Once one dies, that should have been it. It makes him look bad to come around again to having another sidekick when he can inspire these kids to be good people and fight social injustices in other ways. And this kid's dad was very much still alive and not aware that his son was being recruited as a vigilante. If I was the father of a kid being recruited by a superhero to fight psychopaths, thugs and rapists without my consent, I'd want to murder the bastard.

I don't really care that Bruce didn't want another sidekick right away, the fact that he came around to it at all after Jason got murdered bothers me.

Sidekicks are an essential and major part of the DC mythos. I don't think it's a concept that could really be written out short of just pretending the sidekicks never existed, which Post-Crisis didn't do (aside from all of Donna's craziness).

I'd say they are an essential part of the DCU's overall history, but I think it would have been better if they trend had been left in the Silver Age where it belongs. In the Bronze Age where they started transitioning to more serious stories, the original generation of sidekicks were becoming adults and were all at least 18 or older. What I am proposing (and obviously it is waaaaaaaay too late to anything about it now) is that no more sidekicks should have been recruited if they wanted the superhero community to start taking part in more relatively grounded and serious stories, and if they wanted their villains to become a great deal more serious and deadly. Either that, or have new sidekicks like Jason...but don't kill any of them. They want it both ways, and it never seems to work that much. The original sidekicks when they were kids were in more whimsical stories that didn't try to pretend to be realistic.

I think if the New 52 going into Rebirth is an indication of anything it's that pretending certain characters didn't exist or had their mantles isn't very popular in the long-run.

Yeah, but by that point the new generation of sidekicks had existed for way too long that it was too late and the fanbase would obviously not want to let them go. I'd rather DC not created them at all post-Death in the Family or not do DitF to begin with.

Every Robin needed to become Robin for a reason.

All the post-Dick Robins were created to keep the brand alive, in-story logic (or lack of logic) be damned.

[byrd156]

Batman Forever and Batman & Robin aren't really Tim Burton movies; Joel Schumacher was brought in to direct those. (Burton was still listed as producer, but he wasn't directing them, so who knows how much influence he actually had on those two movies.)

Early storyboards had Robin in '89 in the classic suit but was cut. Then he was going to be redesigned as Bruce's mechanic in Returns.

[Frontier]

He shouldn't need convincing or to eventually become comfortable with the idea of getting another sidekick. Once one dies, that should have been it. It makes him look bad to come around again to having another sidekick when he can inspire these kids to be good people and fight social injustices in other ways. And this kid's dad was very much still alive and not aware that his son was being recruited as a vigilante. If I was the father of a kid being recruited by a superhero to fight psychopaths, thugs and rapists without my consent, I'd want to murder the bastard.

I mean, by that kind of logic he should never have trained Dick to be Robin in the first place by taking an orphaned kid and turning him into a crime-fighting machine which could've easily have gotten him killed or seriously hurt.

Robin is as much Batman's greatest strength as it his weakness, and the point of that story was that Batman still needed a partner to help him in the field and back him up. And that's Robin.

Post-Crisis brought some modern and grounded sensibilities to the DCU but I don't think it was ever meant to fully do away with all the fun, whimsy, and ridiculousness of comics (or, in the cases where it was, stuff like that was undone).

I don't think Jack Drake took it well once he actually learned about Tim being Robin, but I haven't read much of that era of Robin.

I don't really care that Bruce didn't want another sidekick right away, the fact that he came around to it at all after Jason got murdered bothers me.

I like Batman with Robin, so I was fine with it .

I'd say they are an essential part of the DCU's overall history, but I think it would have been better if they trend had been left in the Silver Age where it belongs. In the Bronze Age where they started transitioning to more serious stories, the original generation of sidekicks were becoming adults and were all at least 18 or older. What I am proposing (and obviously it is waaaaaaaay too late to anything about it now) is that no more sidekicks should have been recruited if they wanted the superhero community to start taking part in more relatively grounded and serious stories, and if they wanted their villains to become a great deal more serious and deadly. Either that, or have new sidekicks like Jason...but don't kill any of them. They want it both ways, and it never seems to work that much. The original sidekicks when they were kids were in more whimsical stories that didn't try to pretend to be realistic.

I mean, there's only so much realism you can put in Superhero stories, especially in the DCU, and they've been making a habit of referencing or bringing back Silver Age concepts into the modern era for a long time now.

If there were no more sidekicks after the Post-Crisis reboot then we also would have lost a lot of the younger generation that people grew up with in that generation, who were fairly popular. No Young Justice, no more Teen Titans, etc.

[Restingvoice]

If they're realistic and Bruce would only train adults, then eventually Bruce will retire and Dick becomes Batman, Damian will be his Robin, Steph is Batgirl, and Duke is someone Dick picked up, not Bruce. After Dick's time is pass, Tim will be the next Batman, Duke will be the next Robin, until their time's up and Damian will be Batman, and so on and so forth until Terry McGinnis appear...

Point is if they're realistic Bruce would've been gone by now anyway, so I just tune out hearing about the realism of child endangerment in a comic where the enemies are made of magic clay, acid turns people to clowns, and everyone can revive by taking a dip in a green spa.

Of course, I also roll eyes at a story of yet another dead Robin and just wait for a year until they come back.

There are takes of Batman that incorporate realism like Nolan movies or Batman Year One, but even from Year One to the other Batman comics I already feel the disconnect. Like, I like them, but they don't match the tone of the rest of the DC universe.

Eternal superheroes are commodities for each company that produce them and so is producing new superheroes as baits for new generations for profit. So there's no letting go how that meta element influence the logic in these stories.

[db105]

I also find it strange how people are so concerned about realism in the stories about a man who fights crime by swinging from roof to roof dressed like a bat.

Anyway, Batman is a character that admits many interpretations, and some of them work best a gritty loner. Some of them work best with the batfamily. All the different interpretations enrich the character.

[SiegePerilous02]

I mean, by that kind of logic he should never have trained Dick to be Robin in the first place by taking an orphaned kid and turning him into a crime-fighting machine which could've easily have gotten him killed or seriously hurt.

Dick never got killed though, did he? And he was introduced and became iconic long before they started trying to tell more serious stories, so the execution worked better. Realistically it shouldn't work to begin with, but that's why they didn't try to pretend to be realistic. But then they tried to do a Reality Ensues situation and killed Jason, which makes Bruce look bad when he comes around to trying again, and it casts a shadow over everything that came before and makes Bruce look like an idiot for starting the trend to begin with. Just because he got lucky and Dick didn't die doesn't mean he isn't damn lucky it didn't happen.

Killing one teen makes the situation with the previous one look worse, it's suddenly harder to ignore how dangerous and insane it was.

Robin is as much Batman's greatest strength as it his weakness, and the point of that story was that Batman still needed a partner to help him in the field and back him up. And that's Robin.

It's really only Robin for marketing purposes, they couldn't let the brand die.

In-universe, there is no logical reason why it can't be an adult character. Guest starring Nightwing, a reformed Catwoman, an un-crippled Batgirl, or a brand new character. All that is important is that he had Robin in his history (Dick), but doesn't necessarily need one after.

I mean, there's only so much realism you can put in Superhero stories, especially in the DCU, and they've been making a habit of referencing or bringing back Silver Age concepts into the modern era for a long time now.

IDK, they bring back Silver Age concepts, lore and continuity, but often keep the gritty tones, leaving it kind of confused. Again, making it seem like they want to have it both ways. Which is easy to roll with a lot of the time because it happens so much that you have no choice but to get used to it, but still dead kids and irresponsible adult heroes is kind of a tough pill to swallow.

If there were no more sidekicks after the Post-Crisis reboot then we also would have lost a lot of the younger generation that people grew up with in that generation, who were fairly popular. No Young Justice, no more Teen Titans, etc.

Well personally, I would have been fine with that as I'm apathetic to the YJ whole generation to begin with But if Jason had never died, it would make bringing in the rest of the new generation less weird. The line wouldn't have been crossed and it would be easier to suspend disbelief.

[byrd156]

Dick never got killed though, did he? And he was introduced and became iconic long before they started trying to tell more serious stories, so the execution worked better. Realistically it shouldn't work to begin with, but that's why they didn't try to pretend to be realistic. But then they tried to do a Reality Ensues situation and killed Jason, which makes Bruce look bad when he comes around to trying again, and it casts a shadow over everything that came before and makes Bruce look like an idiot for starting the trend to begin with. Just because he got lucky and Dick didn't die doesn't mean he isn't damn lucky it didn't happen.

Killing one teen makes the situation with the previous one look worse, it's suddenly harder to ignore how dangerous and insane it was.



It's really only Robin for marketing purposes, they couldn't let the brand die.

In-universe, there is no logical reason why it can't be an adult character. Guest starring Nightwing, a reformed Catwoman, an un-crippled Batgirl, or a brand new character. All that is important is that he had Robin in his history (Dick), but doesn't necessarily need one after.



IDK, they bring back Silver Age concepts, lore and continuity, but often keep the gritty tones, leaving it kind of confused. Again, making it seem like they want to have it both ways. Which is easy to roll with a lot of the time because it happens so much that you have no choice but to get used to it, but still dead kids and irresponsible adult heroes is kind of a tough pill to swallow.




Well personally, I would have been fine with that as I'm apathetic to the YJ whole generation to begin with But if Jason had never died, it would make bringing in the rest of the new generation less weird. The line wouldn't have been crossed and it would be easier to suspend disbelief.

Jason dying shouldn't condemn more young heroes from being used or created.

[docmidnite]

Tbh, Batman and Green Arrow are the only characters that shouldn't have kid sidekicks from a realistic standpoint because none of those kids have dangerous superpowers.

Superman wanting to keep an eye on his government created teenage half-clone and/or son and wanting to ensure that they use their powers safely and responsibly? That makes sense.

Same with Barry, Arthur, Diana and their powerful sidekicks.

Bats and Ollie on the other hand really should be steering kids away from the type of lives they themselves are forced to live.

But, since I also realize that Bruce would have dislocated his shoulder irreparably after his third rooftop swing on his first night on the job and would have been forced to quit there and then from a realistic standpoint, I just roll with these things, personally.

Besides. I liked the pre Crisis Jason more than the post Crisis revamped Jason, anyway.

[oasis1313]

Tbh, Batman and Green Arrow are the only characters that shouldn't have kid sidekicks from a realistic standpoint because none of those kids have dangerous superpowers.

Superman wanting to keep an eye on his government created teenage half-clone and/or son and wanting to ensure that they use their powers safely and responsibly? That makes sense.

Same with Barry, Arthur, Diana and their powerful sidekicks.

Bats and Ollie on the other hand really should be steering kids away from the type of lives they themselves are forced to live.

But, since I also realize that Bruce would have dislocated his shoulder irreparably after his third rooftop swing on his first night on the job and would have been forced to quit there and then from a realistic standpoint, I just roll with these things, personally.

Besides. I liked the pre Crisis Jason more than the post Crisis revamped Jason, anyway.

Just meta up all the children.