Fantastic Four #2 SPOILERS

[mrbrklyn]

Sue gives the team leadership, a moral compass, and stops the other characters indulging in their worst excesses (reed locked up in his lab, johnny ego tripping or losing his cool, the thing falling down rabbithole of his situation). I always think of her as very three dimensional character

(Preview pages for this issue look really nice too)

She seems to have failed in that role in the current rendering of the FF. Valery seems to be acting more like Susan than Susan is.

[mrbrklyn]

I've been holding my tongue but the part of the preview that showed this constant creation of new universes to be somewhat weak-sauce and possibly over the top, certainly an overblown use of plot to explain their activities.

Your right. It is way over the top, and as a plot twist, it is lazy. This is the third storyline that they did over Franklins powers and they get worst with each passing one. Franklin Richards has become the Rorschach test for every poorly thought out storyline that they have come up with.

[mrbrklyn]

The movies or the comics?

Let me be honest, comic books/creator rarely receive awards for their work outside the comic world. And in fact, the movie versions of the examples you mentioned are probably more regarded, by many more people, than the comic works.

I am pretty content not expecting or demanding something at the level you may be seeking. One, no one outside comics would ever see the beauty or pretty much, so its a waste. I certainly want Sue to be the most/best/well known character of Marvel Comics, but that will only happen outside the comics. The Sue of the MCU should be the greatest character in all the movies.

I've been a FF fan since the later '60s. I've never NOT read their comic, though I don't pick up every other thing they may be in as a team or individuals.

Clearly, they work for me and I'll take the original Galactus trilogy, The Search/Trial of Reed Richards, Hickman's entire run, and maybe an issue or two from some other creators, over Batz and Naked Blue guy, any day. (but I like the Watchmen movie a whole heck of a lot!)

Stanley Kubrick is dead though. Maybe Hick can put together an FF Movie.

[mrbrklyn]

Sue's experiences may not be fully fleshed out - this isn't Shakespeare, Hemmingway or Patterson - so we have to deal with the reality that it is a comic book. We're not going to see those levels of growth in the same way. Just my thoughts. There still is nothing like Sue in comics - with the exception of who I feel is the most well conceived female character; DC's Batwoman, Kate Kane.

Y’see, with thinking like this, we won’t get works like The Dark Knight Returns or Watchmen.

Why do you say that? Do you think that the Dark Knight or the Watchmen flushed out the characters well?

[mrbrklyn]

I just don’t see how creating an entire new universe can not have profound moral implications for the creator.

Or the author... or Sue and Reed.

[doomeye56]

Lyja should not be there because the relationship she had with Johnny was creepy and it would be best if they just ignored her.

The last time we saw She Thing she was depowered and wrestling. Seems like none of the writers are good at keeping track of her.

This is not correct Sharon Ventura was last seen in prison during James Robinson's Fantastic Four run right before Secrect Wars

[JKtheMac]

I just don’t see how creating an entire new universe can not have profound moral implications for the creator.

If Franklin really has no control at all about the subsequent way those universes turn out..then effectively he’s playing dice with billions of lives. That would be profoundly immoral..equivalent to a guy impregnating a woman then just walking away from his responsibilities. Except..on a massive scale.

If he does have some control..and I think he does because he will surely have designed the universes with some broad principles in mind (e.g. good should ultimately triumph over evil, etc)..then he has a profound moral responsibility to get the design right. It shouldn’t be a kids game..which (however unfairly) is how the artwork I’ve seen comes across.

Look at it from the point of view of all those billions of people Skulls, etc as well as humans who will have really sad lives...maybe being cannon fodder for super heroes v super villain fights...it’s not sufficient, I think for Reed and Franklin to bring billions of people into life without profound moral reflection beforehand.

One can choose to consider all of this as an ethical issue, but on the other hand one could just see it for what it is, a fun and cool story about a kid that was destined to build universes. All the seeds had been laid for that to happen, and it would just be disappointing if they didn’t. We can only assume that the act of creation has a utilitarian element built into it. The best possible world given the variables they choose.

[JackDaw]

One can choose to consider all of this as an ethical issue, but on the other hand one could just see it for what it is, a fun and cool story about a kid that was destined to build universes. All the seeds had been laid for that to happen, and it would just be disappointing if they didn’t. We can only assume that the act of creation has a utilitarian element built into it. The best possible world given the variables they choose.

I don’t think it’s an either/ or...ethical issues have been explored before in plenty of essentially light hearted mainstream comics.

I do have mixed feelings about this story line. One...I’ve always thought that having a full strength Franklin, or near full strength Franklin on team for any length of time will skew stories that can be told, and make the team balance even more unbalanced.

Apparently a reduced power Franklin is still going to be stronger than Thor, Silver Surfer, and Hulk. So what does Ben do? Hold Franklin’s coat while Franklin overpowers all but the cosmic entities in two panel?

And second nagging thought: is letting Franklin at such a young age create universe after universe full (I assume) of sentient beings really consistent with Reed and Sue’s actions in the past?

They have been consistently cautious on that..using various methods to damp the powers. What has changed to make them so confident that this is a reasonable thing to do? Call me imaginative...but I can think of several ways to more gradually develop Franklin’s powers!

As I read comics years in arrears always happy to see how things go, then decide whether to read or not. But...I think Dan Slott is going to have to be really creative and in top form to make this work. But then...that’s what we always hope for in a FF writer anyway.

[talja_l]

I don’t think it’s an either/ or...ethical issues have been explored before in plenty of essentially light hearted mainstream comics.

I do have mixed feelings about this story line. One...I’ve always thought that having a full strength Franklin, or near full strength Franklin on team for any length of time will skew stories that can be told, and make the team balance even more unbalanced.

My children had nightmares over the death of a single person. The movie, "Hitchhikers guild to the galaxy" badly frightened them. This book is casually destroying and making universes. This is just not going to work.

[Prof. Warren]

My children had nightmares over the death of a single person. The movie, "Hitchhikers guild to the galaxy" badly frightened them. This book is casually destroying and making universes. This is just not going to work.

It'll be fine, honestly.

Whole universes are casually destroyed in comics all the time.

[mrbrklyn]

My children had nightmares over the death of a single person. The movie, "Hitchhikers guild to the galaxy" badly frightened them. This book is casually destroying and making universes. This is just not going to work.

looks like it will be over by issue 4. I wish they would sell the FF to BOOM comics.

[CaptCleghorn]

Based on the ages of the kids, the Richards family and the Future Foundation have been ding this for years. It's not a stretch to imagine that there are only a few franklin fantasy universes. And if we look at current beliefs about actual scientific parallel universe the number is eith iunfinite or very, very large based on the number of ways each event could have gone. pretty much, everything is out there somewhere. This includes any Franklin derived fun universes.

As to universes being destroyed, it's getting status quo for the FF to be saving dying universes. It's nice that Dan Slott is handling the characters as family with foibles and relationships, but it's about time for a more low-key adventure like what Ben, Johnny,nd Jen did with the yancy Street kids. It's the mix that makes any superhero book. If it's all universe threatening. nothing remains important.

[mrbrklyn]

Based on the ages of the kids, the Richards family and the Future Foundation have been ding this for years. It's not a stretch to imagine that there are only a few franklin fantasy universes. And if we look at current beliefs about actual scientific parallel universe the number is eith iunfinite or very, very large based on the number of ways each event could have gone. pretty much, everything is out there somewhere. This includes any Franklin derived fun universes.

How does it make sense to request universes with more ocean worlds and more caves.

How many worlds are in a Universe? Think of a number.... a really big number. Now multiply it by that same number, the biggest number you can think off. Then raise it to the power of that number.

Now you are not that close, but your a blip on the possibilities of the number of worlds that can exist in the universe. And each world is a hugely diverse thing.

I'm sorry. Chocolate universes make no sense whatsoever and is not sellable as an idea in the 21st century.


And then there is just the attitude of the Richards family. They are not nonchalant. These characters a flat, without real character and what character they have is not in line with the FF. These 2 stories are the worst I have ever read of the FF and I have read EVERY ONE of them.

[mrbrklyn]

As to universes being destroyed, it's getting status quo for the FF to be saving dying universes. It's nice that Dan Slott is handling the characters as family with foibles and relationships, but it's about time for a more low-key adventure like what Ben, Johnny,nd Jen did with the yancy Street kids. It's the mix that makes any superhero book. If it's all universe threatening. nothing remains important.

without question. i think they should have started with something close to earth and simpleand built from there... but they need to explain the missing members. This story, however, is not doing that very well.

[JackDaw]

It'll be fine, honestly.

Whole universes are casually destroyed in comics all the time.

They are.

But theres’s surely a legitimate series of questions to be asked about whether the main characters are being written consistent with their history, and whether going forward most story lines will make sense given the characters claimed power sets.

Given that we’ve had long arcs where Reed has seen the danger of hubris, learnt the importance of teamwork and family, etc...it does seem strange that he feels it’s okay to create universes without a fair degree of certainty how it will pan out. Meanwhile leaving Johnny and Ben in total ignorance.

But right at start of arc...we’ve established that’s okay. And it’s also okay to change others peoples memories. Basically ...prudence and conventional morality has been jettisoned, in favour of experimentation and pragmatism.

And then we have a character whose power set is: “he can do anything he wants, on any scale up to creating universes without any apparent power source...except on unspecified times when he can’t”.

It doesn’t strike me as a great set-up for any but cosmic level stories. If the Richards family now struggle against the likes of Puppet Master, Mad Thinker, Frightful Four...it’s going to look as phoney as a three dollar bill.

But part of me hopes they do give Franklin at full power or near it a good long run. Let’s see if it can work..because the line “he will be become ultra-powerful one day” shouldn’t go on forever if we want to see overall story progression, rather than same stories re-run.

In my usual pessimistic way..I think a long run of ultra powered Franklin wouldn’t go well. But if it’s tried and go badly. Then he could just be permanently depowered, and we could move on..rather than effectively stuck in Groundhog Day.

And..of course..easily possible I’d be wrong, permanent full power Franklin might work well..and he can stay at that level. Either way would represent progress.