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  1. #406
    insulin4all CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    I have a different opinion. I like Cap with integrity. As to whether the Earth was any worse than before Secret Wars and Beyonders, I think it’s roughly similar. My beef is I’m seeing million year Avengers that never existed before. That history is false. The new Ghost Rider is from Battleworld? Spider-Gwen was an advertising campaign? This silly little pink girl from the real Earth thinks she’s in a comic world? Hulk Cho doesn’t work. ANAD is a mishmash of executive decisions made in the promotional department. Hell, let’s form a Battleworld, and just swipe all the these offbeat characters and put them in the ANAD. It’s not necessarily worse than what came before, just kooky.
    Cap had integrity, but you, he, and 99.99999%+ of the world's population are dead. A fake Cap did some bad stuff and got stopped by a good Cap who supposedly has integrity and you're all still alive. I won't begrudge you your choice, but it isn't one that would have gotten much consideration from me.

  2. #407
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    On the subject of forming universes I fall on the side that if you create a universe, you leave it alone to seek its own destiny, good or bad. I don’t hold that a creator interferes again after creation. A creature should be free to develop in the environment it finds itself.
    So a sun is about to go nova... a populated planet with 2 billion people orbits it. The people are peace loving, don’t want to die, but are presently at Middle Ages level of technology. They have the clear potential to do wondrous things if saved.

    You can use a fraction of the power you used to create their universe to move ther planet and save them.

    It doesn’t strike me as a moral stance to “leave them alone to seek own destiny, good or bad”.

  3. #408
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    So a sun is about to go nova... a populated planet with 2 billion people orbits it. The people are peace loving, don’t want to die, but are presently at Middle Ages level of technology. They have the clear potential to do wondrous things if saved.

    You can use a fraction of the power you used to create their universe to move ther planet and save them.

    It doesn’t strike me as a moral stance to “leave them alone to seek own destiny, good or bad”.
    It is a reflective anthropomorphic issue. We see no evidence that anyone would save such civilisations in our universe so we reflect that we should not interfere with our own creations. We look at our creations as experimental because the way we rule out religion is scientific. Everything is reflective in the arguments.

    In reality if we created a universe and were able to maintain stewardship of every individual planet we would need to be omniscient. There would be too much data to notice a specific supernova. The issue wouldn’t be ‘do we owe it to the lifeforms we created’ but ‘can we realistically do anything to monitor this much information’. The problem completely disappears in the face of practicality.

    Given that we do notice a supernova extinction event, do we even have the power to do anything meaningful? Is it even possible to reach in and intervene? That would presumably be a part of the initial conditions of the experiment. Many theoretical models for creating universes do not imply omnipotence. It is a lot easier to kick start a universe than to do anything about how it evolves.

    In this instance Franklin is not and has never been portrayed as omnipotent or omniscient so what exactly is he supposed to do? He can try and help the best he can. That is not the same as ‘use a tiny portion of his power to change things’ by any measure.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 09-19-2018 at 01:41 AM.

  4. #409
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbrklyn View Post
    Did you ever meet Jack when he was alive? He would not be happy with this, if he cared at all.
    I have read dozens of interviews and second hand accounts of Kirby, being an avid reader of The Kirby Collector. I have also read his work widely. I can pattern recognise as well as the next guy. IMO Slott's work here is following a pattern he established on Silver Surfer and in turn is following a Kirby inspired pattern. If I can see direct influences and a similar sensibility in Slott's work then I can meaningfully project that IMO Kirby would be pleased.

    That is not an objective statement so I don't need to run it past Kirby himself.

    My point is your assertion is even more biased towards your perspective, you are not actually using any evidence apart from you don't like it. I am actively using a direct comparison of tone, style, choice of artist, etc. Your wording suggests a dead man you haven't met would share your own views. My wording suggests that works of art with similar content and sensibilities are probably created by artists with similar sensibilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrbrklyn View Post
    Oh no, that is not gonna fly. There are measurable problems with this script that have nothing to do with opinion, but based on literary principles of narrative, character development and linearity of the plot.

    This story is missing all three of those. It should never had gotten past the editor.
    Quote Originally Posted by mrbrklyn View Post
    That is only one aspect that bothers me. The part that really bothers me is the lack of a narrative, and the destruction of the character development of the main protagonists. You can't anticipate anything or enjoy the plot if you can't sympathize with the characters or anticipate how they would react to events when they don't behave not according to emotional framework that has been intact and developed for 50 years.

    Sorry you would need to demonstrate that, not just assert it. So far everything you have said has been dismissive and that isn't how one objectively analyses a story. You sound to me like you are using pseudo literary analysis methods to assert your opinions. If you wish to prove otherwise that is entirely up to you and your methodology.

    There is even a major flaw in your argument because the book did get past the editors. At least one of whom, Brevoort, would run you ragged with his depth of knowledge about the MU. I have heard him speak, and dozens of people I have listened to and respect have attested to his encyclopedic knowledge of the MU and specifically his favourite subject the Fantastic Four. I would trust him over any non-professional opinion.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 09-19-2018 at 02:16 AM.

  5. #410
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Yes, thank you for that nice detailed appraisal of the current situation in the 8th cosmos or ANAD. And yes, you could read it as the Future Foundation restored the whole millions of other universes of the Multiverse as it was in the 7th cosmos, but they didn’t.

    The big indicator there is Prime Earth ANAD. Look at it carefully. It contains the Triscalion, it contains Miles Morales, it contains bits and pieces from other universes like the Squadron Supreme. And don’t get me started on Kobik and Ulysses ever existing in the 7th cosmos. Prime Earth is nothing like it was in the 7th cosmos, so why hasn’t every other planet been changed as well? Why not all the universes in the Multiverse? My reading of Sue’s statement was only a Thousand Universes were created in the time since the end of Secret Wars, and that seems about right. But your interpretation is possible too, where all the Multiverse was restored.

    The existence of the Cosmics as you’ve stated it, is possible also. They may just spontaneously appear once a new cosmos forms, or, they never died or were obliterated, and just are.

    I’m very appreciative of your post.
    You seem to be missing that the current prime universe is a best match mash-up of the 616 and the 1610, neither of which exist any more (and no those pages in Spider-Men were not the 1610).

    They couldn't restore the MU, but they could restore the ones that were not obliterated. In Secret Wars the area that is the 616 is also the 1610. They were inseparably mixed.

    The idea was that the Multiverse could be extrapolated from Battleworld and from Doom's methodology of reality manipulation. Reed can presumably take one step further and extrapolate other universes but he can't rebuild the 616 and the 1610 separately. The resulting mash-up is not Reed, Franklin or Owen's fault, it is circumstantial.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 09-19-2018 at 02:18 AM.

  6. #411
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    You seem to be missing that the current prime universe is a best match mash-up of the 616 and the 1610, neither of which exist any more (and no those pages in Spider-Men were not the 1610).
    Well Lockjaw recently teleported into the Ultimate universe D-Man while fighting Annihilus.
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  7. #412
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    It is a reflective anthropomorphic issue. We see no evidence that anyone would save such civilisations in our universe so we reflect that we should not interfere with our own creations. We look at our creations as experimental because the way we rule out religion is scientific. Everything is reflective in the arguments.

    In reality if we created a universe and were able to maintain stewardship of every individual planet we would need to be omniscient. There would be too much data to notice a specific supernova. The issue wouldn’t be ‘do we owe it to the lifeforms we created’ but ‘can we realistically do anything to monitor this much information’. The problem completely disappears in the face of practicality.

    Given that we do notice a supernova extinction event, do we even have the power to do anything meaningful? Is it even possible to reach in and intervene? That would presumably be a part of the initial conditions of the experiment. Many theoretical models for creating universes do not imply omnipotence. It is a lot easier to kick start a universe than to do anything about how it evolves.

    In this instance Franklin is not and has never been portrayed as omnipotent or omniscient so what exactly is he supposed to do? He can try and help the best he can. That is not the same as ‘use a tiny portion of his power to change things’ by any measure.
    Okay, JK.

    So try a slightly different question. You create a universe, on overall design principles that you think gives the occupants the best chance of a good life. You become aware that another cosmic entity is interfering with that design. Is there an obligation to oppose those changes??

    In general terms..I think after such an act as creating a universe, zillions of different things could happen. In some circumstances, it would be right to do nothing, in some circumstances right to do something. Sort of amazed to think that anybody can think simple rule of "always do nothing" will always be the right moral choice.

  8. #413
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    Well Lockjaw recently teleported into the Ultimate universe D-Man while fighting Annihilus.
    That's interesting. Could you give me the source? personally I would put that down to a continuity error. It would fly in the face of dozens of other books that have taken great pains to point out that the 1610 is no more. It could be retconned of course, but that in itself would cause a lot of continuity problems.

    If its a cameo it is as easy to handwave as the end of Spider-men. its a universe that is just like the old 1610, but not the actual one where say the James Howlett in X-Men Blue came from.

    It could even be retconned that the new Ultimate Universe we keep seeing glimpses of is just like the old 1610 but without certain characters, and that if they were to be sent back there they wouldn't be duplicate. That would seem a crazy thing to do but it is comics.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 09-19-2018 at 03:06 AM.

  9. #414
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    Okay, JK.

    So try a slightly different question. You create a universe, on overall design principles that you think gives the occupants the best chance of a good life. You become aware that another cosmic entity is interfering with that design. Is there an obligation to oppose those changes??
    Isn't this comic answering that issue? Valeria draws a line in the sand for this very reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    In general terms..I think after such an act as creating a universe, zillions of different things could happen. In some circumstances, it would be right to do nothing, in some circumstances right to do something. Sort of amazed to think that anybody can think simple rule of "always do nothing" will always be the right moral choice.
    That is neither my opinion nor the apparent opinion of the writer. The disconnect is imagining Franklin is somehow omnipotent. Perhaps with Owen around they would be, but this isn't full Secret Wars Owen. That Owen was the combination of every Owen in the multiverse. This one is presumably the 616 Owen and he is off the board at the moment anyway. Presumed dead (as if). I don't consider Franklin and Owen combined to be omnipotent.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 09-19-2018 at 03:08 AM.

  10. #415
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Isn't this comic answering that issue? Valeria draws a line in the sand for this very reason.


    That is neither my opinion nor the apparent opinion of the writer. The disconnect is imagining Franklin is somehow omnipotent. Perhaps with Owen around they would be, but this isn't full Secret wars Owen. That Owen was the combination of every Owen in the multiverse. This one is presumably the 616 Owen and he is off the board at the moment anyway. presumed dead (as if). I don't consider Franklin and Owen combined to be omnipotent.
    I rather suspected your own opinion (and Dan Slott's) was not to "create and walk away with no further responsibilities"...but my own post ("if a sun is going nova...") was a question posed to jackolover...who does hold the opinion "create the universe then walk away".

    Moving on, I'll be interested in what Dan S's solution to Franklin's power level will be. I've not read much of his stuff (Thing Idol of Millions, a lot of She Hulk run, and bits of Spider-man run), but have really enjoyed the ones read. I'll most likely end up reading this Fantastic Four run eventually....unless you and the rest of the FF gurus ultimate verdict is "thumbs down".

  11. #416
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    That's interesting. Could you give me the source?
    Lockjaw #4. CBR mentions it as well.

    https://www.cbr.com/lockjaw-inhumans...-dc-crossover/

    https://www.cbr.com/marvel-ultimate-universe-plans/
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  12. #417
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    I rather suspected your own opinion (and Dan Slott's) was not to "create and walk away with no further responsibilities"...but my own post ("if a sun is going nova...") was a question posed to jackolover...who does hold the opinion "create the universe then walk away".
    Yes I know. I was critiquing the way you were each discussing it. The discussion was anthropic. It implied that either a creation we made was somehow in our control or less than us in some way, when it could be entirely outside of our control and much greater than us. The mental trap is to see universe creation as an experiment. We think of experiments as being things we study and learn from. If we were to look at intelligence like that there would rightly be moral considerations.

    Indeed my only critique of this book (earlier in the thread) is that Reed falls into one of my pet hates in sci-fi and by his actions appears to consider the universes that they have created as somehow lesser than the original multiverse. This is part of an annoying habit of the 'prime' universe somehow being more important in science fiction. As critiques go this is not a big one, because the subject is being addressed instead of ignored, and the person with the more cavalier approach in this story is Reed. If anyone is going to have unconscious bias towards the 'experimental' view it would be him.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    Moving on, I'll be interested in what Dan S's solution to Franklin's power level will be. I've not read much of his stuff (Thing Idol of Millions, a lot of She Hulk run, and bits of Spider-man run), but have really enjoyed the ones read. I'll most likely end up reading this Fantastic Four run eventually....unless you and the rest of the FF gurus ultimate verdict is "thumbs down".
    Not an FF guru myself. But I have no doubt considering the shape of this discussion that Frankin's power will be up for deabte for months to come as the story progresses. Personally I think we have seen a hint. Slott is depicting Franklin and Valeria as reflecting Reed and Sue. Franklin may be hampered by the hubris he has already been shown to have, and also his age, which seems to be adolescent and subject to teenage moods. A good writer will be able to use these as limiting factors without resorting to the well documented means that seem to offend some fans.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 09-19-2018 at 03:32 AM.

  13. #418
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    From what I can tell it is a single panel cameo. Let's see if Marvel ever do anything to address this. Certainly the 1610 Maker seems to be under the impression that the 1610 is no more, so unless Marvel address it directly we have to assume it is a look alike world. It would be logical to address this in the Fantastic Four if Marvel ever intend to bring that universe back into play properly. I don't think they plan to relaunch the Ultimate line any time soon.

  14. #419
    Extraordinary Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Yes, thank you for that nice detailed appraisal of the current situation in the 8th cosmos or ANAD. And yes, you could read it as the Future Foundation restored the whole millions of other universes of the Multiverse as it was in the 7th cosmos, but they didn’t.
    The comics say they did restore millions of universes. Not just this panel, by any means, but plenty of storylines since the end of Secret Wars have depended on exactly that. Ultimates, Exiles, Spiderverse stories, plenty of others. The multiverse of millions of disparate universes is out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    The big indicator there is Prime Earth ANAD. Look at it carefully. It contains the Triscalion, it contains Miles Morales, it contains bits and pieces from other universes like the Squadron Supreme. And don’t get me started on Kobik and Ulysses ever existing in the 7th cosmos. Prime Earth is nothing like it was in the 7th cosmos, so why hasn’t every other planet been changed as well? Why not all the universes in the Multiverse? My reading of Sue’s statement was only a Thousand Universes were created in the time since the end of Secret Wars, and that seems about right. But your interpretation is possible too, where all the Multiverse was restored.
    No, it's definite. Just because the Prime Earth has some minor changes to it does not mean that the other millions of universes don't exist as well, especially when we have actually seen that they do, and your reading of Sue's language is not how English works; when you say you didn't just restore things, that doesn't mean you didn't restore them, it means you didn't stop there.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    The existence of the Cosmics as you’ve stated it, is possible also. They may just spontaneously appear once a new cosmos forms, or, they never died or were obliterated, and just are.

    I’m very appreciative of your post.
    Possible? They've been seen. It's not just possible, it's known that a variety of the cosmic abstract beings exist in this multiverse.

  15. #420
    Extraordinary Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Of coarse I am more inclined towards Natural universes rather than manufactured universes. But the problem is would there be any difference? I think Tony Stark would take issue with Manufactured universes just like he had a problem with CWII Ulysses changing outcomes by sabotaging history. Don’t make adjustments to the flow of history, by avoiding calamities - you just make it worse. Franklin trying to make things better, just made it worse, because the rest of the humans didn’t take part in the process. The way a Natural universe progress is you encounter Galactus. Not send him to another universe to avoid him. Or give novice players a cosmic cube or a precog.
    Then since the One Above All is a thing in the MU, I guess you're against any universes at all, right?

    And the Tony Stark thing is a load of BS - like he's never tried to avert a calamity, even one he had advance knowledge of through time travel (Iron Age, anyone?).

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