Fantastic Four #2 SPOILERS

[mrbrklyn]

What are these several times besides the 3 I mentioned where Franklin was the deus ex machina? Don't try to cheat and tell me go read through all of FF.

Are you taking to me?

All of them?!?

All the storylines since the Hyperion storyline have resolved around Franklin Richards, and yes, you should read them all. The last story that didn't revolve around Franklin in the end was when Johnny was left for dead in the negative zone. After that Franklin has run a mock over the entire Marvel universe.

Psi-Lord
Hyperstorm
Onslaught
Heroes Reborn
the Celestials
Ultimate Nullifier
Haazareth
Onslaught again!
Secret Invasion
Dark Reign where he shoots the golbin with a toy gun...
Asgardian warrior
the Celestials and the future Franklin, who now graduates to immorality..

I probably left out s story or two.

It is enough of this repeating storyline.

[mrbrklyn]

You are building castles in the air. Unless you have been reading Slott's notes you have no idea where this may go. Why are you fixated on this one sub-plot? What about it is so offensive to your sensibilities?

That is only one aspect that bothers me. The part that really bothers me is the lack of a narrative, and the destruction of the character development of the main protagonists. You can't anticipate anything or enjoy the plot if you can't sympathize with the characters or anticipate how they would react to events when they don't behave not according to emotional framework that has been intact and developed for 50 years.

[mrbrklyn]

Maybe this book needs Grant Morrison.

maybe it needs Scott Free and Big Barda

OK - I return you back to your regular scheduled programming.. Yom Kipper is coming.

[BAS]

What are these several times besides the 3 I mentioned where Franklin was the deus ex machina? Don't try to cheat and tell me go read through all of FF.

3 is several - and my memory isn't what it used to be.

[vitruvian]

What efforts does this comic show the FF making other than vague anthropology/scientific research?

1) Helping that one alien prince's people defend against/contain some kind of invading horde, right at the very beginning.
2) Defending that same universe against Entropy (albeit at Valeria's insistence).
3) While not another concrete example, we could probably infer that they were helping out as they could, when made aware of their problems, just by virtue of them being the Future Foundation and that being the sort of thing they do.

[vitruvian]

I know its weird. Anyone would think he was responsible for major problems with the book over the decades. He just hasn't. When he needed to be powered up he was. When he needed to be put back in the box he was.

He is clearly not being put back in the box here and that is a positive step. Finally they will be telling stories that include a powered Franklin. My bet is the major limitations to his powers will be based upon his age and the different slant a teenager has, much like Val was used in this issue.

I believe RPGs majorly messed up comic book readers heads. Lots of the fan base think in terms of power levels and not character. Stories are not written like D&D.

I think they probably are going to have to limit him a bit more than just not being able to create new universes willy nilly any more (whether Owen is there to make them permanent or not), and to bring him down even from Silver Surfer/Thor + power levels, in order to use him in the long run without overshadowing the rest of the team.... but there are many ways of doing that. If they want to keep reality alteration as the core of his power description, they could even say he's just as powerful as ever, but there are restrictions on how freely he can use his powers. Perhaps if he does too much he risks destabilizing the reality he's in, or taking a page from Chronicles of Amber, popping himself over to an alternate universe which better matches the changes he's trying to make.

[jackolover]

No, no, and no. Go back and reread, this time reading every word.

Attachment 70870

It is NOT the case that there are only a thousand universes total in existence, vs the millions that used to exist. As Sue's narration states, they didn't just RESTORE the old multiverse, but chose to add their own creations to it - meaning that they DID in fact restore what used to be there basically as it was before they proceeded to ADD their own special gravy to it. The thousand universes are additional ones above and beyond what used to exist, got destroyed or crunched into Battleworld, and which Owen, Franklin, et al have now restored.

As far as natural universes in existence, it depends on your definition of natural... as well as on the origins of the previous multiverse. If the 7th universe had a creator or creators, even the One Above All, the Fulcrum, Celestials, previous version of Eternity, or whatever, would that be any more or less natural? Regardless of distinctions between artificial/created/natural, though, it seems clear that Entropy is an embodiment of the abstract principle for which she is named... and manufactured as well as naturally occurring entities are all subject to entropy and eventual destruction or heat death.

As to where Entropy came from, we've already seen in Ultimates already that the various cosmic embodiments have been recreated (albeit some in changed forms) as a consequence of the Richards family restoring the multiverse, including Eternity, Lord Order and Master Chaos, and so on. In this context, Entropy coming (back) into existence as a reaction to the restoration/creation of the multiverse seems to make a fair amount of sense. We also learned that this is far from the first time that this destruction and recreation of all of existence, including the whole multiverse once the First Firmament was fractured from one reality to many, with the current (ANAD, I guess) multiversal reality being the 8th. That makes the one we've been reading about all along prior to Last Days and Secret Wars the Seventh Cosmos, and the one that Galen of Taa (Galactus) came from the Sixth. We know from Ultimates that each iteration had its own Eternity-like embodiment, and presumably also a bunch of subsidiary abstract cosmic beings like Death, Entropy, Chaos, Order, etc. I'm not sure that their appearance in the Eighth Cosmos requires any more explanation than that.

But overall, the bottom line is that whatever new creations they've been engaged with, first the Future Foundation did in fact RESTORE the previous multiverse and all its realities very nearly as they existed prior to the Incursions and Secret Wars, making the Eighth Cosmos in some ways a continuation of the Seventh. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to regard the current MU and its denizens as any more 'fake' or 'artificial' than the predecessors whose lives they are continuing.... any more than we should regard the Captain Kirk and away team that appears on the planet's surface as fake copies of the versions destroyed on the transporter pad up on the Enterprise. For all intents and purposes, they are the same characters.

Yes, thank you for that nice detailed appraisal of the current situation in the 8th cosmos or ANAD. And yes, you could read it as the Future Foundation restored the whole millions of other universes of the Multiverse as it was in the 7th cosmos, but they didn’t.

The big indicator there is Prime Earth ANAD. Look at it carefully. It contains the Triscalion, it contains Miles Morales, it contains bits and pieces from other universes like the Squadron Supreme. And don’t get me started on Kobik and Ulysses ever existing in the 7th cosmos. Prime Earth is nothing like it was in the 7th cosmos, so why hasn’t every other planet been changed as well? Why not all the universes in the Multiverse? My reading of Sue’s statement was only a Thousand Universes were created in the time since the end of Secret Wars, and that seems about right. But your interpretation is possible too, where all the Multiverse was restored.

The existence of the Cosmics as you’ve stated it, is possible also. They may just spontaneously appear once a new cosmos forms, or, they never died or were obliterated, and just are.

I’m very appreciative of your post.

[jackolover]

On the subject of forming universes I fall on the side that if you create a universe, you leave it alone to seek its own destiny, good or bad. I don’t hold that a creator interferes again after creation. A creature should be free to develop in the environment it finds itself.

[jackolover]

No. I’m not against free will.

But I do believe creator has profound responsibility for initial design and creation of universe. If he can’t do it in a way that results in more joy than misery then he is wrong to create in first place.

Moving on from that initial creation, then I believe he has some responsibility to help and assist his creations when he can do that reasonably.

I see a clear analogy between a good creator and a good parent. A couple who know their kid may have a serious genetic illness have a clear responsibility to (at least) consider not having kids. And once you have kids..you have a responsibility to guide and help them, not “control” them.

In one sense, because we are talking about the flawed Future Foundation, I do think if babies make a universe, it’s going to be flawed, and spiral out of control, so I am against the 8th cosmos altogether if it turns out the FF made the whole lot of it.

For me, the Future Foundation should have done what Vitruvius suggested, and just make Prime Earth the way it was in the 616. Return it the way it was.

[jackolover]

Why was it his “obligation”? Nothing forced him to create..he could have refrained from doing so. Right there at the beginning he had a choice. That carried moral obligations.

And he should have discharged them by asking himself “If I do this, will it turn out well or badly?” He should have been diligent in his task..perhaps, for example, he should have used something like the Bridge to run simulations on how things were likely to turn out before bringing billions of people into existence.

If a full powered Franklin is not going to be used to explore questions like this...I struggle to see point of having character at all. But..you know my bias..I really, really wish he would be powered down.

When you look at the haphazard way that Owen and Franklin were forming universes, there was no analysis of what they made. They formed a soap bubble, and put it out in space. Job done. From this we can say that there was never any consideration of stewardship associated with this creation. They simply conceived of a universe, but never considered if it would be viable. I couldn’t imagine someone with a conscience feeling some sort of anxiety whether what he did was right or wrong, because it would send then crazy. You would have to take the attitude like Own and Franklin, and just say, “There is nothing. I’m going to make it so there is something now”. Job done.

It’s all maybe a bit subjective..but I agree with you whole heartedly.

Let me put a question to those who argue that Franklin’s only moral responsibilty was whether or not to create a universe in first place, that after that he should..or even must..”walk away” and let things take their course.

Suppose things go really badly in one of those universes, and one of the people living there says to Franklin “You created this whole mess. You could have created a different universe, or refrained completely from creation. You have the power to help us now, please tell me why you have no responsibility to help now”...then how can it be a moral act for Franklin to do nothing to help??

And why would Franklin refuse to help? I thought the whole point of being a super hero was to help other people!

I’ll give you one better. Let the Prime Earth ask that of Franklin when he returns - “Why did you make this mess on Earth. What? Cap, is this crazy ex-Hydra fanatic now? We have had Maria Hill and Carol Danvers fix all problems with these easy fix dues ex machina’s? Look what it does to our people. Leave us alone”. That’s where it should start. Earth taking Franklin to task the way he made the planet.

[jackolover]

To the extent that this is a true moral dilemma, doesn't it apply to restoring the old universes as well? After all, in the old or restored 616, everything sure isn't peaches and cream what with all the varied supervillains and the near world-ending events, many of them with severe casualties even when averted, that seem to crop up every other week. If they weren't capable of restoring it with some improvements like, say, removing, oh, Thanos and Roxxon and Malekith and a few other of the more prominent evils out there, was it really right to restore it at all? And conversely, if it was correct to restore the old universe, warts and all, then how would it be wrong to generate completely new universes even if they were similarly flawed?

Of coarse I am more inclined towards Natural universes rather than manufactured universes. But the problem is would there be any difference? I think Tony Stark would take issue with Manufactured universes just like he had a problem with CWII Ulysses changing outcomes by sabotaging history. Don’t make adjustments to the flow of history, by avoiding calamities - you just make it worse. Franklin trying to make things better, just made it worse, because the rest of the humans didn’t take part in the process. The way a Natural universe progress is you encounter Galactus. Not send him to another universe to avoid him. Or give novice players a cosmic cube or a precog.

[jackolover]

You could make that argument, and you could be right. Obviously at this point we don’t know whether Franklin did a good job or not.

I think it would be surpassing strange if the “with power comes responsibility” became changed to “with infinite power, comes no responsibilty”.

The intervention you are talking about with super heroes, is reactive intervention of harm befalling others, the whole purpose of which is the benefit of the hero. The hero gets the satisfaction of doing something good, and it becomes a moral obligation that he do so.

The intervention of a god, like Thor tried to do in King Thor TPB in 2002, resulted in disaster with Earth sending nukes, twice, to blow up Asgard. Nobody wants their world manipulated by some snotty nose kid. The other example is the Phoenix Five in AVX HC. See what that led to?

[CaptCleghorn]

I’ll give you one better. Let the Prime Earth ask that of Franklin when he returns - “Why did you make this mess on Earth. What? Cap, is this crazy ex-Hydra fanatic now? We have had Maria Hill and Carol Danvers fix all problems with these easy fix dues ex machina’s? Look what it does to our people. Leave us alone”. That’s where it should start. Earth taking Franklin to task the way he made the planet.

Looking at Earth before Franklin made the planet, there were a handful of survivors. Now there is an actual planet and seven billion plus. Is it worse than what itt was before the Beyonders and Secret Wars? Nope. Different problems, but a Hydra cap is better than cap and Tony Stark rumbling while the planet's being demolished.

#YEAHBUTYOUWEREDEAD

[jackolover]

That is where it really drops off and it is not well set up for a Fantastic Four story. It is now just wandering around.

First, you are correct. These characters are talking, thinking and speaking in a way that is completely inconsistent with everything we know about them. There is no way that Reed and Sue would leave Johnny and Ben in the lurch like that and then just have this KumBayyah existence playing hopscotch with Franklin through multiple universes, all the while enjoying the campfire in euphoric glow of their children's antics as if they are all tripping on pitocin ... it makes no emotion senses and it completely fails as a narrative.

The natural outcome for the Richards family of Franklin creating universes should be horror, and it has been previously. It is too much power and responsibility, which instead is being played off as if the Richards Family is taking a romp through Candy Land, rather than the bizarre and and twisted thing it is, which would have been resisted by Reed and Susan, not encouraged. And trivializing it by creating Universes ad nauseum, one with more chocolate, one with more oceans, one with more caves, is just so far removed from any FF characterization, and is frankly just stupid. It makes you groan with its stupidity.

You create a universe and it is not large enough and diverse enough for you to find something interesting in? That is worst than the ice planets and desert planets in Star Wars. Really, an entire world of ice and an entire world with desert? Maybe someone needs to explain what a Universe is to the author? Or what a galaxy is? or even solar system?

Then since they have this rather insane story with the Richards family hop scotching though the land of chocolate universes, blissfully happy with specialty hot cocoa mixes, then they need to create this new villain that just pops into the story without explanation or background. I am the goddess of entropy! and the killer of all things and I am here to destroy all of Young Franklin's wonderful cocoa universes!

Maybe Neil Gaiman is around to explain how a death character can be interesting and believable?
....oh ... how ... thrilling...

Why does Franklin's powers not work anymore? He wore them out! Of course!

So now Reed can reach across the multiverse and summons all the characters that ever were associated with the FF, instantaneously together.
And they are all just so HAPPY to be there! Especially Logan. This is the moment that makes his whole existence now truly meaningful.. It is hard to believe that this is even a Marvel book. This is Marvel. They all but created the feisty, quarreling, independent super-hero. This is nothing like a Marvel book.


And this is the second false climax that this author has created in two issues. There is no suspense. The writer seems to be incapable of writing a suspenseful book. This whole storyline feels like a dream. That would be the best plot twist to save this book. Have this all part of Franklin Richards dream as he is kidnapped by Doctor Doom. It might be the only way to save this book. Franklin can be conjuring up an entire new FF Universe of universes in his dreams which eventually crosses over to his reality to defeat Doctor Doom and re-establishes the Fantastic Four in Marvel Comics and ends up reducing Franklins powers to something more manageable.

That can work...

Otherwise, expect the sales to tank and the damage to the FF franchise to be permanent.

This is the worst FF effort yet put together.

It’s fair criticism. I hold to a similar view myself. The sales may be good, so we just won’t know. But I’d like a dream sequence to end ANAD.

[jackolover]

Looking at Earth before Franklin made the planet, there were a handful of survivors. Now there is an actual planet and seven billion plus. Is it worse than what itt was before the Beyonders and Secret Wars? Nope. Different problems, but a Hydra cap is better than cap and Tony Stark rumbling while the planet's being demolished.

#YEAHBUTYOUWEREDEAD

I have a different opinion. I like Cap with integrity. As to whether the Earth was any worse than before Secret Wars and Beyonders, I think it’s roughly similar. My beef is I’m seeing million year Avengers that never existed before. That history is false. The new Ghost Rider is from Battleworld? Spider-Gwen was an advertising campaign? This silly little pink girl from the real Earth thinks she’s in a comic world? Hulk Cho doesn’t work. ANAD is a mishmash of executive decisions made in the promotional department. Hell, let’s form a Battleworld, and just swipe all the these offbeat characters and put them in the ANAD. It’s not necessarily worse than what came before, just kooky.