Fantastic Four #2 SPOILERS

[mrbrklyn]

[mrbrklyn]

A primary point of the people wanting a more developed Sue is that unlike Reed, Ben, and Johnny, she has very little non-FF exposure. That's a definite quantitative poin that can't be argued against. Looking at the first couple of hundred FF covers Sue is seen mostly doing nothing, in the background, or looking fearful with her hand in front of her face. I can count the number of cover power uses for Sue in those 200 issues on one (maybe two) hands.

Now, we're all going to have differing opinions on how developed Sue is or should be. Have two extreme cases arguing about it does none of us any good. Spend enough time on the FF threads and you'll get to know who the more frequent posters are. Trust me, I've disagreed with ALL of them at times on different topics. So what? You like A; I like B. We all like FF, so we have that.

At some point in time, we all realize that there are posters who's minds we are not going to change and because it's how they feel about a funny book and its characters, that's OK.

Neither of these things are true and we can walk through all the FF covers if you want. It is true that the Thing had more adventures outside the FF, that that is because of Marvel Two and One and it says zero about the development of the Invisible Girl. I don't even really care. I never liked Marvel much out of the FF and sometimes Spider-man. But FWIW, The Invisible Women has appeared in 5246 issues, and they sure aren't all the FF... so you do the math.

How much do you really see of the FF characters in the X-men?


https://comicvine.gamespot.com/invis.../issues-cover/

[DragonsChi]

Sue could play more of a role outside of being a mother sure. But keep it in line with her character as she has been shown.

Not for nothing the Woman is the one of the most powerful super heroes in the MU. Which has been shown several times. She has been the chief Business mind to the Fantastic Four Franchise in universe several times. She has been a diplomate more times then anyone is willing to acknowledge....the list goes on and on. So for some of the comments that are being made and continue to be made about Sue and the FF...well at times it's hard to take them seriously.

[mrbrklyn]

I'm going to disagree strongly here.

It sounds like you agree with me, and this is one of the greatest panels ever done in Comics history. Truly wraps up everything that the FF is all about.

[Digifiend]

I was fine with the idea of aging Franklin up because I thought it would be interesting to see him as a teenager, but judging by the way they've aged Valeria (she already has breasts, which would put her at least in her early teens), he would be in his early 20s! I think that was maybe a little bit too much. Val around 6/7 and Franklin around 15/16 would've been my ideal choice of age for them now. It'd be enough to feel like a new chapter for the characters, but not too much that it would feel like we've missed out on so much of their growth. But oh well, it is what is is. Let's see how they will handle it.

You got the age difference wrong. Their old ages were 3 and 8, so if Franklin is now 16 Val would be 11. That is old enough to be developing breasts nowadays. No way they're older than 13 and 18, 10 years up from previously.

[mrbrklyn]

I think in DC Kate Spencer and Shayera Thal are two other terrifically well conceived female DC leads.

Turning to Sue, I think one reason why her development stalled after John Bryne run was down to Marvel’s refusal to let Franklin and Val age past low teens.

Imagine both had flown the nest..that it would be natural for Sue to radically change her lifestyle, indeed almost perverse not to show substantial change.

Would she become a mature student? Become an even more reckless adventuter? Mentor some of the Future Foundation kids. Or a combination of all three, and much more?

The only problem with this is that, ummm...

Motherhood (and fatherhood) never ends

[mrbrklyn]

Where is this from? I want to say its from Hickman's FF run, but I don't remember Sue and Andromeda drawing closer (and I think that is not a bad idea btw)

This was the end of the first series, 560 something, probably. The arc ends with the death of the Human Torch a pounding, hard hitting story if ever there was one. There were three parallel storylines at the same time.

[Ravin' Ray]

Folks, two things.

First, keep it cool with each other.

Second, too many pages from one issue are being posted here with at least one repetition. I'm squeezing this notice in my time but either go back and delete some pictures or I will come back and delete them later myself.

[mrbrklyn]

I think one reason why her development stalled after John Bryne run was down to Marvel’s refusal to let Franklin and Val age past low teens.

I think that I just showed that the development of the character in no way stalled after Bryne. But, one has to ask, why does the character need to develop constantly? We are trying to right a serial comicbook here and the characters need to have some consistency year after year, if they are going to produce books that sell. It is a commodity. The only comic where that characters developed in real time was Gasoline Alley.


This was the problem that Marvel faced that until the 1980's, DC never had. The continuity that makes the stories so compelling inevitably ages out the characters. Peter Married Mary Jane, and them what? Are we going to follow them into old age?

[mrbrklyn]

Folks, two things.

First, keep it cool with each other.

Second, too many pages from one issue are being posted here with at least one repetition. I'm squeezing this notice in my time but either go back and delete some pictures or I will come back and delete them later myself.

FWIW, the images I posted were from over 4 issues, no more than 2 per issue, but I will clip them.

~~~

Done - I scaled them back.

[iron chimp]

Sue gives the team leadership, a moral compass, and stops the other characters indulging in their worst excesses (reed locked up in his lab, johnny ego tripping or losing his cool, the thing falling down rabbithole of his situation). I always think of her as very three dimensional character

(Preview pages for this issue look really nice too)

[JackDaw]

I think that I just showed that the development of the character in no way stalled after Bryne. But, one has to ask, why does the character need to develop constantly? We are trying to right a serial comicbook here and the characters need to have some consistency year after year, if they are going to produce books that sell. It is a commodity. The only comic where that characters developed in real time was Gasoline Alley.


This was the problem that Marvel faced that until the 1980's, DC never had. The continuity that makes the stories so compelling inevitably ages out the characters. Peter Married Mary Jane, and them what? Are we going to follow them into old age?

I agree that there is no particular need for a character to develop constantly. It’s all about fan preference...the nature of comics is that writers can (and often do) keep characters perpetually young, free from major injury, fantastically rich, etc. And many...most likely large majority of fans prefer that.

But for me, I prefer to see some progression. In the early days of FF we saw that. We saw...for example...Sue make a choice between Reed and Namor, Sue and Reed get married, have kids. All that showed progression...and for me added interest.

And it meant that Sue and Reed could be portrayed as facing decisions that other super heroes hadn’t faced before...most importantly “how do we raise the kids?” And again I think that added interest.

And the way it went..I think showed Sue as a strong character. Yes..true Reed sometimes played the “you’re a woman you need to look after the kids” card. But actually...the way I interpret the story effectively Sue always ended up making the key decisions herself.

If she felt the best option for her family was to take time out away from adventuring she did that...if time was right ..in her opinion..to go adventuring she did. She made most of the family decisions, after taking all the factors into account.

For me it all added interest. And I would have liked to see how Sue’s life changed when kids grew older, left for university, got jobs, etc.

But I’m just expressing my own view and preferences. Like many things, I know it’s subjective, and can easily see why others have different preferences.

[Shadowcat]

Sue gives the team leadership, a moral compass, and stops the other characters indulging in their worst excesses (reed locked up in his lab, johnny ego tripping or losing his cool, the thing falling down rabbithole of his situation). I always think of her as very three dimensional character

(Preview pages for this issue look really nice too)

Those roles can be boiled down to her matriarchal position within the team, rather than developing her as a character.

[Drops Of Venus]

You got the age difference wrong. Their old ages were 3 and 8, so if Franklin is now 16 Val would be 11. That is old enough to be developing breasts nowadays. No way they're older than 13 and 18, 10 years up from previously.

I was going by the sliding timescale. With Franklin being born in 1968 and Valeria being born in 2002, that would put an age gap of 9 years between them. I don't remember when it was specifically established that Franklin was 8, but I could buy he was 12 during Secret Wars. So going solely by the sliding timescale logic, even if she was 11 now (which I seriously hope it's not the case because that scene with the seemingly older guy asking her to be his consort would be super creepy), that would make him at least 20. Now, of course, that would require Marvel to actually follow their own sliding timescale logic, but we know that doesn't always happen and characters age in all kinds of different ways. I guess I can overlook it when it happens in different stories, but when it's with two characters who are in the same book, appearing in the same pages, it's a little bit glaring. So I hope there is some kind of official explanation as to what's going on with Val's and Frank's ages there.

[JackDaw]

Those roles can be boiled down to her matriarchal position within the team, rather than developing her as a character.

She might have have carried out those tasks because of her “matriarchal role within the team”, but surely the way those tasks are carried out are immensely revealing as to her character.

I think she’s been consistently shown over the years as calm, resourceful, and loving. I agree with the Chimp that she does come over much more as a rounded individual than the other three.

Reed’s characterisation comes over as Mr “Head in the Clouds Boffin, but perfect really”. Never met anybody like that in real life. But I do know some people like Sue...she does come across as more “real”.