Fantastic Four #2 SPOILERS

[Digifiend]

I was going by the sliding timescale. With Franklin being born in 1968 and Valeria being born in 2002, that would put an age gap of 9 years between them. I don't remember when it was specifically established that Franklin was 8, but I could buy he was 12 during Secret Wars. So going solely by the sliding timescale logic, even if she was 11 now (which I seriously hope it's not the case because that scene with the seemingly older guy asking her to be his consort would be super creepy), that would make him at least 20. Now, of course, that would require Marvel to actually follow their own sliding timescale logic, but we know that doesn't always happen and characters age in all kinds of different ways. I guess I can overlook it when it happens in different stories, but when it's with two characters who are in the same book, appearing in the same pages, it's a little bit glaring. So I hope there is some kind of official explanation as to what's going on with Val's and Frank's ages there.

Wasn't Franklin de-aged at some point?

[iron chimp]

Those roles can be boiled down to her matriarchal position within the team, rather than developing her as a character.

Its a position she earned as her character was developed, powered up, and put centre stage during byrne's run and which everyone followed after him (imo).

At the same time some writers over reliance on Reed's machines to wrap up a storyline and the completely over powered kids has relegated sue johnny and ben to supporting characters when its all kicking off. The power levels amongst the team could definitely do with a rebalancing.

[jackolover]

Already from the preview I can anticipate that making up Universes and planets will become boring and tedious after a year or two and the Freedom Foundation will want to stop doing it. There is only so much reality television one can stomach before you have to ween off it, because you can’t think of anything new after a while. You’ve made everything possible from the Earth imagination.

That also presents us with the notion, Reed didn’t really remake the 616, or the Multiverse in its previous image, but, just made it up Willy nilly, but not organically. If reality hasn’t evolved into existence organically, then it’s false. If you have a false reality, it will collapse in some way eventually.

[jackolover]

wonder if the whole threat to universes is arising is another god like threat like beyonders or celestials just like last time in heroes reborn (although the celestials are busy in avengers dying and being resurrected) or something new or just Franklin not being able to create stable ones.

There’s a strangeness about ANAD you can see from the Ultimates series, where a being exists from the other 7 iterations of reality before this one, and, Magic doesn’t work the same anymore. There seems to be a manufactured quality about Ulysses in CWII, and the whole solving of everything that Reed keeps wanting to happen, in Avengers Standoff, and CWII.

They really, really should bring back "What If?" and have it basically be an FF spin-off based around exploring Franklin and the FF's universes.

Yeah. That’s a really good idea for a way to show the travels of the future Foundation creating universes.

Maybe Val will try to hit on Namor!

It would be funny to see him fumbling and losing his composure because he knows he CAN'T act all sketchy, and he's is overcome with modesty around her.

There is the dynamic between Val and Victor von Doom still to be considered.

I wonder what they're going to do with Franklin and his powerset now that he's older.

I don’t think they can let Franklin have Universe creating powers after this. Owen Reese and Franky will have to part company and that’s that.

[Prof. Warren]

Already from the preview I can anticipate that making up Universes and planets will become boring and tedious after a year or two and the Freedom Foundation will want to stop doing it.

Already my common sense is telling me that they're not going to be creating new universes and planets all the time, much less for another year or two.

That also presents us with the notion, Reed didn’t really remake the 616, or the Multiverse in its previous image, but, just made it up Willy nilly, but not organically. If reality hasn’t evolved into existence organically, then it’s false. If you have a false reality, it will collapse in some way eventually.

It doesn't matter whether this reality has evolved organically or not. It's not bound by any scientific laws because, spoiler alert, it's all FICTIONAL.

Nothing is going to collapse "eventually" because it's not real. It's only stories on paper. That's it. It can continue onto infinity and never collapse because it only exists in the imagination of writers and artists.

[jackolover]

Already my common sense is telling me that they're not going to be creating new universes and planets all the time, much less for another year or two.



It doesn't matter whether this reality has evolved organically or not. It's not bound by any scientific laws because, spoiler alert, it's all FICTIONAL.

Nothing is going to collapse "eventually" because it's not real. It's only stories on paper. That's it. It can continue onto infinity and never collapse because it only exists in the imagination of writers and artists.

World outside your window? I don’t think so.

[FBarnhill]

I guess I see what you're saying. But Sue's development in this scenario is based on the Old Atlanteans acknowledging it. Not Reed, Johnny or Ben. Not Namor. Others who saw and interacted with it.

Second, who else in Sue's position ('60s created female; Wasp, Jean Grey, Wanda, etc.) has also been a Queen, if only for a day.

Sue's experiences may not be fully fleshed out - this isn't Shakespeare, Hemmingway or Patterson - so we have to deal with the reality that it is a comic book. We're not going to see those levels of growth in the same way. Just my thoughts. There still is nothing like Sue in comics - with the exception of who I feel is the most well conceived female character; DC's Batwoman, Kate Kane.

Y’see, with thinking like this, we won’t get works like The Dark Knight Returns or Watchmen.

[U.N. Owen]

With the threat of the Beyonders over, what exactly lies in the Beyonders' dimension? They can't possibly be the only race in that dimension.

Still, I'm more looking forward to Franklin and Val. I'm really looking forward to how they interact with children their age that aren't in the Future Foundation from the Champions to even Hope Summers. It would be a fun dynamic to see Hope who was raised to believe she's a god due to the Phoenix and Franklin who, by his own admission, is a god.

[Crimz]

With the threat of the Beyonders over, what exactly lies in the Beyonders' dimension? They can't possibly be the only race in that dimension.

Still, I'm more looking forward to Franklin and Val. I'm really looking forward to how they interact with children their age that aren't in the Future Foundation from the Champions to even Hope Summers. It would be a fun dynamic to see Hope who was raised to believe she's a god due to the Phoenix and Franklin who, by his own admission, is a god.

That would make for a great adventure for the Fantastic Four. I also want to see the team to explore the Hyperspace dimension.

[Crimz]

I guess I see what you're saying. But Sue's development in this scenario is based on the Old Atlanteans acknowledging it. Not Reed, Johnny or Ben. Not Namor. Others who saw and interacted with it.

Second, who else in Sue's position ('60s created female; Wasp, Jean Grey, Wanda, etc.) has also been a Queen, if only for a day.

Sue's experiences may not be fully fleshed out - this isn't Shakespeare, Hemmingway or Patterson - so we have to deal with the reality that it is a comic book. We're not going to see those levels of growth in the same way. Just my thoughts. There still is nothing like Sue in comics - with the exception of who I feel is the most well conceived female character; DC's Batwoman, Kate Kane.

I understand that character development isn't going to happen in every arc or run, especially in a team book. I'm just saying that's it's been a really long time since she's had any. And having her outside of the FF more would give a new side to the character, one that isn't reliant on trying to wrangle the other members. Basically, I want to know what Sue is like outside of the family. What is her personality like when she's not reigning in the other members? Really delve into who Sue Storm is because I see a lot of untapped potential with the character.
The Hickman Atlantis story is similar to what I want, but she's not really out of her element. The FF deal with Atlantis (and the negative zone) so often that I'm shocked they don't have holiday homes there.

Like, have Sue guest appear in the X-Men and really delve into how she feels about the mutant plight considering her son is one.
Have her team-up with Scarlet Witch considering they both have close ties to Agatha Harkness and see how Sue deals with magic.

Just give her a presence in the MU outside of the FF, and see how her personality grows from it. Not just whenever there is an all-female team.

Also, Ben and Johnny need some development too. The way that things seem to be going, it is likely to happen during this run.
Ben is finally getting married and his appearance is no longer the issue it was.
Johnny is going to have to grow up now that Franklin seems to be taking his place as the immature jokester.

I'm really optimistic about this run.

[Prof. Warren]

World outside your window? I don’t think so.

What are you even talking about?

The fact that Marvel has been described as the "world outside your window"?

Look, it's as much that now as it ever was. It's a fantasy universe that touches on aspects of our own reality and that's it.

Expressing any kind of concern over how the MU was recreated in Secret Wars as though eventually that reformed universe might collapse due to the fact that it wasn't created organically is absolutely crazy. All of this is made up, the Marvel Universe isn't susceptible to ANY natural laws. It's just a bunch of stories and it can continue to exist as long as storytellers are adding to the narrative.

[jackolover]

What are you even talking about?

The fact that Marvel has been described as the "world outside your window"?

Look, it's as much that now as it ever was. It's a fantasy universe that touches on aspects of our own reality and that's it.

Expressing any kind of concern over how the MU was recreated in Secret Wars as though eventually that reformed universe might collapse due to the fact that it wasn't created organically is absolutely crazy. All of this is made up, the Marvel Universe isn't susceptible to ANY natural laws. It's just a bunch of stories and it can continue to exist as long as storytellers are adding to the narrative.

ANAD is made up sure. But we're talking about Franklin now. He makes little soap bubbles called universes, as he did in Heroes Reborn and that collapse and dropped all the heroes into the "real" 616 eventually. Franklin is making soap bubble universes after Secret Wars now. I don't hold out any of them surviving as something permanent. The ANAD one is Reed and the kids wishful thinking. That's the way I see it, and eventually we'll get the Heroes Reborn setting after.

[Prof. Warren]

ANAD is made up sure. But we're talking about Franklin now. He makes little soap bubbles called universes, as he did in Heroes Reborn and that collapse and dropped all the heroes into the "real" 616 eventually. Franklin is making soap bubble universes after Secret Wars now. I don't hold out any of them surviving as something permanent. The ANAD one is Reed and the kids wishful thinking. That's the way I see it, and eventually we'll get the Heroes Reborn setting after.

Anything Franklin creates is as permanent as the writers and editors want it to be. Because it's all make-believe.

A "soap bubble universe" is as real as anything else in comics - which is to say, not real at all.

If the current universe is undone or re-created, it's simply because writers decided to tell that story, not because it collapsed on its own - again, and I can't stress this enough, because none of this is real.

[Crimz]

ANAD is made up sure. But we're talking about Franklin now. He makes little soap bubbles called universes, as he did in Heroes Reborn and that collapse and dropped all the heroes into the "real" 616 eventually. Franklin is making soap bubble universes after Secret Wars now. I don't hold out any of them surviving as something permanent. The ANAD one is Reed and the kids wishful thinking. That's the way I see it, and eventually we'll get the Heroes Reborn setting after.

The universes aren't going to collapse again. Franklin creates them and Molecule Man anchors them, that's why they are just as stable as before.

I believe that it was said that the 616 universe (or Prime universe) was restored not created. It's not going to collapse for no reason and Reed/Franklin did not influence it in any way.

There is nothing wrong with how they are creating multiverses, they even made a point that Molecule Man anchors them to reality so that they won't collapse again.




They are not going to have the multiverse collapse yet again. That was what happened in Secret Wars and this is the solution to that. To do it all over again would be boring and spitting on Hickman's great story.

EDIT: Also, if anyone changed the 616 universe in any way it was Molecule Man who added Miles to it. Who knows what else he changed.

[JackDaw]

Anything Franklin creates is as permanent as the writers and editors want it to be. Because it's all make-believe.

A "soap bubble universe" is as real as anything else in comics - which is to say, not real at all.

If the current universe is undone or re-created, it's simply because writers decided to tell that story, not because it collapsed on its own - again, and I can't stress this enough, because none of this is real.

Of course, you’re right.

But in story telling terms does having an ultra, ultra powerful Franklin make sense?

There’s all sorts of ways Marvel can re-set universes....without making Franklin so ultra-powerful. And all sorts of ways idea of a human having god level powers can be explored without making Franklin ultra-powerful. (Just give any one Infinity Gauntlet or similar.)

Those are the two main reasons for idea of having Franklin so highly powered...but personally I don’t think either really holds water.

On other hand...having Franklin around...and Reed effectively being able to do similar feats after 15 minutes in the lab..makes some of the other regular Fantastic Four characters seem pretty pointless when the action really kicks off.